Electric vehicles

[Rorschach]

Sure, I just got £255 for a 1.5 petrol Golf for comparison. Interesting exercise!

Very interesting!

I wonder how those numbers change across a broader spectrum of people. I wonder if EV's are more expensive then ICE for some people?
Oh and were both cars automatic? I know that makes a bit of a difference.

 

[Geoff_S]

Both automatic, yes

 

[Nigel Burden]

Jeremy, I am not really trying to make a point as such. There was a request for experience of EVs so I gave mine. I didn't buy it to save money - I bought it as an alternative to a Range Rover, which is what we would have got otherwise. I was interested in experiencing the technology and my best friend and business parter is a very persuasive woman so we took the plunge.

The reason why fuel savings are so high for us is we live in the UK and also Germany (German wife). So we frequently trek to Koln and also to Delft. This is quite a long way (around 370 miles each way) and previously was usually in an Audi Q7 as we use it to shift a lot of stuff. The Q7 is a 4.2 diesel V8 and has a huge range but is expensive to fill. The Tesla is actually free in terms of fuel costs for these trips - but does take a bit longer, despite the superior acceleration. This is because I only want to do one charge stop on the journey and realistically the motorway range on the Model X is maximum 270 miles at sensible speeds. The Q7 will do door to door on one tank. (In fact it will do London to Mannerdorf, the other side of Zurich on one tank).

I'm not an EV evangelist by any means. I can reel off criticisms if needed, but I do think that Tesla have pretty much got it right. It is interesting to see the tech evolve. Every couple of weeks there is a software update which improves certain aspects (and occasionally is rather stupid). This is pretty much remote servicing, which I suspect is the future.

How would the vehicle cope in the event of adverse weather? eg. sub zero temperatures with freezing fog where most of the vehicles ancillaries would be required. Surely these situations, although rare will impact on driving range considerably.

Nigel.

 

[Bodgers]

Jeremy, I am not really trying to make a point as such. There was a request for experience of EVs so I gave mine. I didn't buy it to save money - I bought it as an alternative to a Range Rover, which is what we would have got otherwise. I was interested in experiencing the technology and my best friend and business parter is a very persuasive woman so we took the plunge.

The reason why fuel savings are so high for us is we live in the UK and also Germany (German wife). So we frequently trek to Koln and also to Delft. This is quite a long way (around 370 miles each way) and previously was usually in an Audi Q7 as we use it to shift a lot of stuff. The Q7 is a 4.2 diesel V8 and has a huge range but is expensive to fill. The Tesla is actually free in terms of fuel costs for these trips - but does take a bit longer, despite the superior acceleration. This is because I only want to do one charge stop on the journey and realistically the motorway range on the Model X is maximum 270 miles at sensible speeds. The Q7 will do door to door on one tank. (In fact it will do London to Mannerdorf, the other side of Zurich on one tank).

I'm not an EV evangelist by any means. I can reel off criticisms if needed, but I do think that Tesla have pretty much got it right. It is interesting to see the tech evolve. Every couple of weeks there is a software update which improves certain aspects (and occasionally is rather stupid). This is pretty much remote servicing, which I suspect is the future.

How would the vehicle cope in the event of adverse weather? eg. sub zero temperatures with freezing fog where most of the vehicles ancillaries would be required. Surely these situations, although rare will impact on driving range considerably.

Nigel.

Of course. An ICE car also uses more energy in winter too...

If you want numbers the Nissan UK site has a table of ranges you can expect at different temperatures/conditions for the leaf.

Batteries are also heated and cooled by a management system.

 

[Woodchips2]

I'm glad I started this off because I've learned an awful lot about electric vehicles (albeit from a very low base ) so appreciate all the contributions thanks.

I've got an additional requirement for a wheelchair accessible vehicle for my wife who is disabled. Nissan do a nice vehicle but that starts at £35k which is beyond my budget. Five years ago I bought an ex-Motability Citroen Berlingo with a diesel engine. Very low mileage but it cost me around £500 every year to get it through the MOT and on the last one the main dealer failed to satisfy the emissions test and they couldn't tell me why after 10 hours of tests (they were so embarrassed they only charged me for half-an-hour). I had to flog it off to We-Buy-Any- Car and now have a Renault Kangoo petrol wheelchair conversion. It puts out more emissions, costs more to tax and insure, has less power and uses a lot more fuel but I no longer drive a 'Dirty' diesel. Result I think not.

Love reading the different views so keep them coming and I think I am less negative about the future.

Regards Keith

A lot of the problem with diesel cars is that too many drivers drive them too gently, change up too soon to keep the revs low. This soots up the DPF which will affect emissions. This was a problem that a lot of drivers who just used their cars for short shopping trips experienced. It' not so much of a problem if you do longer journeys. I've never had a problem, but I tend to drive in lower gears keeping the revs up much to my wives annoyance, as my mpg tends to be less than hers.

Another problem if you drive too gently is the dual mass flywheel. My friend is very eco minded, tending to pull away using very little throttle. He had a clutch replaced on his Peugeot 407 about four years ago which cost him £1300. He was told that he basically drives too gently.

Nigel.

You've got it in one, I bought the wrong car. A lot of our mileage is local trips of less than 3 miles so when the sooting up first started the main Citroen dealer said thrash it on the motorway once a week for 20 minutes in 3rd gear which I did but thought "this is the tail wagging the dog" and not my style of driving.

The more I read of the contributions on this thread I think electric vehicles were maybe invented for me (hammer) .

Regards Keith

 

[AJB Temple]

Nigel and others. Re cold. Interesting question.

I keep my car garaged. Very cold weather (sub zero in Germany at times) has almost no impact on range.

My partner keeps hers on her drive. Very cold weather reduces range by about 20%. Enough to be annoying.

 

[RogerS]

.... This is pretty much remote servicing, which I suspect is the future.

Mmm..sounds to me like an open door challenge for a hacker :wink:

ICE cars are also not immune.

Sent from my Redmi Note 5 using Tapatalk

Totally agree.

 

[RogerS]

.... Perhaps a tiny runaround shopping trolley style electric car, and keep the truck for the days I cut down trees etc. Still working out the wrinkles.

Sorry, TN, but Doctor Bob is way ahead of you on this thinking

:lol:

 

[MusicMan]

I'd love to get a Microlino when it comes out next year!

https://electrek.co/2018/09/14/microlin ... preorders/

 

[Trainee neophyte]

I'd love to get a Microlino when it comes out next year!

https://electrek.co/2018/09/14/microlin ... preorders/

Reckon I could strap a 4m paddleboard to that? If so, it would be perfect.

 

[Just4Fun]

An ICE car also uses more energy in winter too...

In theory yes, but ...
I keep a fairly close eye on fuel consumption and I am always trying to drive more economically to beat my previous figures. (OK, sad hobby). Our winters are usually significantly colder that in the UK; getting down below -30C is not exactly rare. I also have studded tyres in winter, and have to push through snow. Heaters, demisters, heated seats etc are on almost permanently for months on end. Intuitively I would expect all this to have a significant impact on fuel economy but in practise I cannot measure any difference.

 

[Rorschach]

An ICE car also uses more energy in winter too...

In theory yes, but ...
I keep a fairly close eye on fuel consumption and I am always trying to drive more economically to beat my previous figures. (OK, sad hobby). Our winters are usually significantly colder that in the UK; getting down below -30C is not exactly rare. I also have studded tyres in winter, and have to push through snow. Heaters, demisters, heated seats etc are on almost permanently for months on end. Intuitively I would expect all this to have a significant impact on fuel economy but in practise I cannot measure any difference.

What kind of driving do you do, long or short trips normally?

From what I can gather the batteries need cooling once they have been running for a little while. So for short trips in cold weather the range is reduced because the battery never gets up to temp to be fully efficient. For longer trips in the cold the battery warms itself and the excess heat is used to warm the car so it can be very efficient overall. In hot weather on longer trips the AC system has to cool the battery so range is reduced but short trips are more efficient.

 

[AJB Temple]

Rorsach - this depends on the technology the manufacturers use. Some EVs can be programmed to pre warm the battery (and the car) at a given time (pre commute for example). If the car is tethered to its charging station this makes sense. One other advantage of an EV is that the "tank" can always be full every day if you wish.

 

[Tris]

A couple of questions for those who already have EVs, do you own or lease your batteries, roughly what is the cost, and how long a life do you get/expect from them?
I would love to replace our second car with something like a Leaf, but it'll be a while before that happens.

 

[AJB Temple]

In my case we own the cars and the batteries. We have a warranty scheme on the batteries, but in any case industry research is that as long as they are not abused they can stay at 98% capacity for 8 years. Not sure that tests have gone beyond that yet.

 

[Sideways]

We as a species have a problem and need to address it.
Our governments need to push alternative energy and transport. Hard.

While I was of working age I didn't have enough time to read and make myself properly aware of some of our climate issues - details, not headlines - nor to really think about what I could do about it. If I had, I'd have had to find a whole new line of work as it involved massive amounts of travelling. People like I was a few years ago are part of the problem, We're not going to welcome change that disrupts our work and lifestyle, however much wider society may actually be clamoring for change.

Now I'm retired, I'm educating myself about stuff that most of our kids have already been taught. I can so I have to change my lifestyle to try and reduce the damage that we do day to day (I love a steak but the environmental impact of cows is dreadful...).

I'm running a small car into the ground and the next one will be battery electric. I have roof space so I'll add solar to help power it. If only someone would get on and make something affordable, I'd love an electric motorbike or scooter like I used to ride in China (just, please, not with lead acid batteries).
We have to be willing to change our lifestyles. Reschedule our local travel where we can, use more public transport for long journeys, run the washing machine when the sun's out or it's windy.

And as was pointed out in a video linked from an earlier thread around this subject, once we reach a tipping point, disruptive technologies seem to turn the status quo on it's head in about a decade. There's a lot to do, yes, but the roller coaster is coming. It's fun. I might even live long enough to see this one happen

<end rant>

 

[RogerS]

.....(I love a steak but the environmental impact of cows is dreadful...)......

Don't believe all the propaganda that you read. As ever, there are two sides to every argument.

use more public transport for long journeys,

It would be helpful if there was even some local public transport in rural areas. We need the car to get to the railway station !

 

[Sheffield Tony]

From articles in Windpower Engineering & Development, we learn that lightning bolts carry from 5 kA to 200 kA and voltages vary from 40 kV to 120 kV. Your 'pretty sophisticated electronics' or a lightning bolt ? Who would win ? I know who I'd put my money on.

At least one of us is a member of what used to be known as the Institute of Electrical Engineers. I know which one I'd put my money on...

We are agreed then. Lightning wins hands down.

[sorry, the system won't let me quote the whole exchange]

Have to dip in here as a CEng member of aforementioned institution. I do a bit of electronic design.
Why worry about EV's and lightning particularly ? ICE vehicles, petrol pumps, almost everything these days are full of electronics. They don't pack up in a storm. Nor does the National grid. Or telecomms equipment. In fact, how often have you known electronics to be damaged by lightning ? Or static electricity ?

Rather analogous to handling petrol - sometimes precautions are needed, like non-sparking filler nozzles. Give engineers a bit of credit, we do sometimes think about things like that.

 

[pcb1962]

.... This is pretty much remote servicing, which I suspect is the future.

Mmm..sounds to me like an open door challenge for a hacker :wink:

Tesla invite hackers to attack their cars and reward them if they're successful.

 

[Trevanion]

In fact, how often have you known electronics to be damaged by lightning ? Or static electricity ?

We had the telly and sound system blow up before christmas during a lightning storm, at the weekend the phones blew up because of a lightning storm.

To be fair though, the electric systems around here are probably very primitive compared to further east. Did I ever tell you the story about when I got electrocuted in my shower by a bad earth on my neighbours electrical system 300 yards away?