Who is in and who is out?

[Benchwayze]

When you mention "toxic movements" it'll be denied by people here, you see, even though a large number of the "get them out" crowd voted for Brexit in the UK, they're just a few mindless bigots we can ignore. Apparently. Even though incidents involving "foreigners" are up 57% or something since the vote.

Wuffles

My post was connected with this one, but for some reason I neglected to actually 'quote' it with my post. Also I happen to agree that the vermin are starting to emerge from their sewers, but it has to be left to the law o sort them out. Lets hope it an be sorted before the bottles and bricks start to fly.' Still I hope you can see how it might irritate someone like me, to be lumped in among the true racists. It might even irritate them somewhat!

'So 'nuff said. I think we could agree that labels can be misleading and muddying overall.

Respects

John

 

[Wuffles]

When you mention "toxic movements" it'll be denied by people here, you see, even though a large number of the "get them out" crowd voted for Brexit in the UK, they're just a few mindless bigots we can ignore. Apparently. Even though incidents involving "foreigners" are up 57% or something since the vote.

Wuffles

My post was connected with this one, but for some reason I neglected to actually 'quote' it with my post. Also I happen to agree that the vermin are starting to emerge from their sewers, but it has to be left to the law o sort them out. Lets hope it an be sorted before the bottles and bricks start to fly.' Still I hope you can see how it might irritate someone like me, to be lumped in among the true racists. It might even irritate them somewhat!

'So 'nuff said. I think we could agree that labels can be misleading and muddying overall.

Respects

John

Yes, that was in response to someone suggesting the current inflated violence towards Polish and others was just a few bad eggs and that it should be pretty much ignored. I'll find the post, but it wound me up.

 

[clk230]

the 57% equates to about an extra 30 reports , I'm in no way condoning the attacks .

 

[Wuffles]

And so it begins http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... exit-vote/

Careful, Paddy. The photograph of the 'protest' in Newcastle shows a grand total of four protesters with a big banner. Still vile and distasteful in the extreme - and quite right to condemn it; but it's not a mass outbreak of racism and xenophobia.

The argument is that it's now been legitimised, read the article, there's more than 4 blokes in Newcastle being talked about. Similar story in the Guardian too if that's more your thing.

This was it.

 

[Jake]

Three people we know locally have experienced abuse of the f off home you fing foreigners variety (no violence) so 30 is reports of attacks is misrepresenting the scale of the issue. That's in separate instances each of which included many others being abused in public places not just them.

 

[clk230]

Three people we know locally have experienced abuse of the f off home you fing foreigners variety (no violence) so 30 is misrepresenting the scale of the issue. That's in separate instances each of which included many others being abused in public places not just them.

Sorry 30 is NOT misrepresenting the scale at all the official figure is a 57 % increase which equates to around 30 .

 

[Wuffles]

Three people we know locally have experienced abuse of the f off home you fing foreigners variety (no violence) so 30 is misrepresenting the scale of the issue. That's in separate instances each of which included many others being abused in public places not just them.

Yes, and this was only "reported" incidents. I think we have (I say we as it's our problem now) somehow legitimised attacks, verbal, whatever with the vote to leave.

There are a great many people who it still hasn't dawned on that we won't be kicking out foreigners, ever. When the penny drops, that's going to be interesting.

Expect UKIP to do well at the next election.

 

[Jake]

Was just editing it to make it clearer that I meant that the number of violent attacks misrepresents the scale of the issue, not that you were misrepresenting the figures.

 

[cedarwood]

It's not just the immigrants that are being abused by a minority, quite a lot of abuse is being hurled at those that voted to leave.

 

[clk230]

Was just editing it to make it clearer that I meant that the number of violent attacks misrepresents the scale of the issue, not that you were misrepresenting the figures.

the thing is we can only go by official figures otherwise we are in danger of making the problem seem much bigger than it really is .

 

[heimlaga]

..... The longer the establishment holds down all forms of critisism against the EU oligarchy and even in many cases actively directs agressions away from themselves and towards innocent foreigners or ethnical minorities the more people will flock to the facists and the more destructive the eventual turnover will be.
We need to stop that toxic development very quickly before we find our selves caught up in a new world war.

The thin end of the wedge is objection to free movement. At the other end is movement by force. This leads to Auschwitz.

No......I don't think so.......

When lots of workers have lost their jobs to underpaid Bulgarians and been robbed by Romanians they are very easy prey for facist propagandists. We have a steadily rising 13% unemployment in Finland and I see that happen all around.
Your former prime minister mr Churchill once said that the Entente won the first world war and lost the peace. He refered to the fact that the very hard peace treaty caused poverty and hopelessness and consequent politic volatility in Germany. That volatile climate helped Hitler to power.
Now the EU is creating a similar volatile Molotoff-cocktail by free mobility of underpaid labour and free dumping of wages and no taxes for the rich..... plus a multitude of licence fees and regulations that kills off small and mid sized busenesses by the hundred.

I am perfectly aware that the Romanian pickpocket and his wife and 12 kids come here simply because the times are so hard in Romania that there are no pockets left to pick. All pockets are empty except those of the almighty maffia bosses...... and getting a honest job for a reasonable pay is utterly impossible if you are born a Romanian Gypsie.
I am perfectly aware that the underpaid Bulgarian comes here because they believe they can get a better future than in their own destitute country ruled by the maffia. Often the Bulgarians are fooled to take on jobs in Finland for wages too low to put food on the table without additional stealing. Very often the money gets lost and never reaches the employee.

Bringing those poor Bulgarians and Romanians here to work for nothing or to steal only breeds even more poverty and consequent hatred both in Finland and in Britain and in their homelands while the cheap migrant workers produces fortunes for the new nobility. All while the maffia becomes almightier than ever in their ever poorer homelands. A rotten system.

Just my thoughts.......

 

[Jacob]

..... The longer the establishment holds down all forms of critisism against the EU oligarchy and even in many cases actively directs agressions away from themselves and towards innocent foreigners or ethnical minorities the more people will flock to the facists and the more destructive the eventual turnover will be.
We need to stop that toxic development very quickly before we find our selves caught up in a new world war.

The thin end of the wedge is objection to free movement. At the other end is movement by force. This leads to Auschwitz.

No......I don't think so.......

When lots of workers have lost their jobs to underpaid Bulgarians and been robbed by Romanians they are very easy prey for facist propagandists. We have a steadily rising 13% unemployment in Finland and I see that happen all around.
Your former prime minister mr Churchill once said that the Entente won the first world war and lost the peace. He refered to the fact that the very hard peace treaty caused poverty and hopelessness and consequent politic volatility in Germany. That volatile climate helped Hitler to power.
Now the EU is creating a similar volatile Molotoff-cocktail by free mobility of underpaid labour and free dumping of wages and no taxes for the rich..... plus a multitude of licence fees and regulations that kills off small and mid sized busenesses by the hundred.

I am perfectly aware that the Romanian pickpocket and his wife and 12 kids come here simply because the times are so hard in Romania that there are no pockets left to pick. All pockets are empty except those of the almighty maffia bosses...... and getting a honest job for a reasonable pay is utterly impossible if you are born a Romanian Gypsie.
I am perfectly aware that the underpaid Bulgarian comes here because they believe they can get a better future than in their own destitute country ruled by the maffia. Often the Bulgarians are fooled to take on jobs in Finland for wages too low to put food on the table without additional stealing. Very often the money gets lost and never reaches the employee.

Bringing those poor Bulgarians and Romanians here to work for nothing or to steal only breeds even more poverty and consequent hatred both in Finland and in Britain and in their homelands while the cheap migrant workers produces fortunes for the new nobility. All while the maffia becomes almightier than ever in their ever poorer homelands. A rotten system.

Just my thoughts.......

People don't choose to work for low wages, it's the employers' choice. We should have strictly enforced minimum wages and conditions of work to create a level playing field for all.
NB these Romanian pickpockets with 12 children are a bit mythical. Nobody has seen them except phil.p in Cornwall, but I think he sees things :roll: . We've got a Romanian family in the village here. He works in catering (proper UK wages etc) she does craft work and runs a market stall. A very nice couple. Their kids go to the local school. I don't think there are twelve of them.

 

[n0legs]

97 bottles of beer on the wall, 97 bottles of beer.
Take one down and pass it around, 96 bottles of beer on the wall.

 

[heimlaga]

Yep. A level paying field for all would be a great way of solving that problem. The migrant workers would be fewer but those who arrive would be able to send home money to build up their home countries and lift themselves out of poverty and maffia rule. If we could make EU work like that it would still be healthy and the facists would be nothing but a chapter in the history books and there would be little opposition against EU......but reality is quite the opposite.

EU has on many occasions decreed that they are opposed to a level paying field for all. The construction workers union of Sweden had to pay enormous fines because they had blockaded a construction site in Sweden where none of the Lithuanian workers got anywhere near Swedish minimum wage. EU declared this blockade which was allowed by Swedish officials was a breach of the principle of free movement of labour.
In Finland we have had lots of squabbles of the same sort. Nowadays even lots of natives are forced to work below legal minimum wage just to get a job in competition with the migrant workers.

 

[RogerS]

Based on the Brexit campaign Phase 1 to Birmingham at £55bn would pay for around 180 new hospitals!!

And here are some of the skilful, wonderful, dedicated people who might work in those hospitals,

That does raise some interesting questions. For example, why are we incapable of training enough of our own medical staff? What gives us the right to go about other countries poaching their trained (presumably at great expense) best people? Do Spain, Ireland and Greece have a surplus of good medics they don't need, or are we taking staff their populations really could do with? If they have trained a surplus, how come they're so much better at training enough people than we are?

They haven't trained a surplus. Simply that their economy is so dire that the nurses and doctors can't get any jobs.

 

[Jacob]

....
In Finland we have had lots of squabbles of the same sort. Nowadays even lots of natives are forced to work below legal minimum wage just to get a job in competition with the migrant workers.

OK you need unions and other agencies to oppose and fight illegal working conditions. They have more power in the EU rather than out.
There's been a lot of anti union legislation in the UK - the EU could change that and enforce proper wages and conditions of work.

 

[RogerS]

the 57% equates to about an extra 30 reports , I'm in no way condoning the attacks .

Well researched. It's this sloppy bigoted use of English that messes up these threads. Words like "a large number" ...no .... define 'large'..."a number" is sufficient.."a large number" is emotive and bigoted.

 

[Jake]

This case suggests that the ECJ was very protective of the Finnish minimum wage (as it generally is,given that such matters are for member states).

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j ... Dg&cad=rja

 

[RogerS]

People don't choose to work for low wages, it's the employers' choice. We should have strictly enforced minimum wages and conditions of work to create a level playing field for all.
NB these Romanian pickpockets with 12 children are a bit mythical. Nobody has seen them except phil.p in Cornwall, but I think he sees things :roll: . We've got a Romanian family in the village here. He works in catering (proper UK wages etc) she does craft work and runs a market stall. A very nice couple. Their kids go to the local school. I don't think there are twelve of them.

Absolute myth, Jacob. You are spot on. The British Transport Police are fudging their numbers. Must be. Stands to reason. You've implied as much.

Figures released by British Transport Police show half of all convictions for pickpocketing on the London Underground are handed out to Romanians.

Information revealed through a Freedom of Information request shows out of the 5,280 reported pickpocketing incidents on the London Underground between November 1, 2012 and October 31, 2013, there were just 170 convictions.

Of those convictions, 52 per cent were Romanian.

I'm not saying that all Romanians are pickpockets.....merely pointing out the results from those on the ground who are directly involved.

 

[RogerS]

....
In Finland we have had lots of squabbles of the same sort. Nowadays even lots of natives are forced to work below legal minimum wage just to get a job in competition with the migrant workers.

OK you need unions and other agencies to oppose and fight illegal working conditions. They have more power in the EU rather than out.
There's been a lot of anti union legislation in the UK - the EU could change that and enforce proper wages and conditions of work.

You really need to get out more. Have you not heard of the 'minimum wage' ? The UK is leading the way with respect to other countries. Or is it too convenient to ignore ?

I agree that zero-hours contracts are totally wrong. But anti-union legislation ? Really ? What do you mean by that?