Who is in and who is out?

[RogerS]

We've got a £27,000,000 road that goes from well, really, nowhere to nowhere.

what road are you actually talking about here ?

This one maybe ?

http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/bri ... story.html

 

[Noel]

Did the EU just rock up somewhere and say, "hey you, we're building a road there...no no, let me speak, right there and we don't care how stupid it is"?

Sounds like that's what people think happened.

Was there no involvement in anyone local, at all? Sounds like they gave some money and someone else made a series of bad decisions to me if that's what you guys think about the investment made.

Yes, imagine it is a case of: let's build a road/bridge/thing, need some dough, let's apply to the EU. Isn't that the way it works?

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Did the EU just rock up somewhere and say, "hey you, we're building a road there...no no, let me speak, right there and we don't care how stupid it is"?

Sounds like that's what people think happened.

Was there no involvement in anyone local, at all? Sounds like they gave some money and someone else made a series of bad decisions to me if that's what you guys think about the investment made.

Yes, imagine it is a case of: let's build a road/bridge/thing, need some dough, let's apply to the EU. Isn't that the way it works?

No, it's more a case of, "Here's a pot of money. Do something useful with it."

Certain parts of the EU have been designated 'less favoured areas' and are entitled to said pots of dosh. I'm not sure what the criteria are to be so designated, but it's probably something along the lines of economic activity per person in a region, compared to the national average, or whatever. There are several such areas in the UK.

It doesn't always work out. I was heavily involved in a heritage railway in North Wales some years ago. It turned out that we were eligible for an EU grant (by some means or other) through the local council. It didn't happen because the council didn't realise that they were entitled to said pot of dosh for worthy projects until about three months before the cut-off date, so the whole area lost out.

Sometimes, areas get their pot of dosh and then look for things to spend it on. There are, I gather, some beautifully-engineered new roads in parts of Spain, running through virtually uninhabited areas, and connecting nowhere to nowhere.

It was probably all done with good intent, but it's a good example of trying to manage from too far away. A new road sounds great, but it might be more useful to an area to generate economic activity to put traffic on it, and I'm not convinced that remote government is always very successful in promoting that.

 

[Jacob]

Yes Cornwall would have been a much nicer place without roads, railways, tin mines, fishing industry, new industries and all that expensive messing about.
It's obvious really. If the Cornish wanted a road they should pay for it out of their own pockets . Let them choose - just stick £27m on council tax, or spend it on pasties.

And those crazy Spanish roads - start nowhere and go nowhere! Madness!

:roll: :roll: :roll:

It doesn't always work out. I was heavily involved in a heritage railway in North Wales some years ago. It turned out that we were eligible for an EU grant (by some means or other) through the local council. It didn't happen because the council didn't realise that they were entitled to said pot of dosh for worthy projects until about three months before the cut-off date, so the whole area lost out.

Thats good to know - that money wasn't spent on unnecessary nutcase projects. It's not all bad news with the EU!! We can beat them at their own game by not applying for money. That'll show em what we are made of.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

We've got a £27,000,000 road that goes from well, really, nowhere to nowhere.

what road are you actually talking about here ?

This one maybe ?

http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/bri ... story.html

Yes, that's it. There was talk of putting all the traffic between the two towns on that although it goes through an industrial estate, and keeping the old road for buses and taxis. I think there would have been a riot.
Of course part of its raison d'etre might be the 7,500 houses they hope to build off it (unlikely that's to do with the EU ) ... or might I just be a little cynical. :?

 

[Wuffles]

Did the EU just rock up somewhere and say, "hey you, we're building a road there...no no, let me speak, right there and we don't care how stupid it is"?

Sounds like that's what people think happened.

Was there no involvement in anyone local, at all? Sounds like they gave some money and someone else made a series of bad decisions to me if that's what you guys think about the investment made.

Yes, imagine it is a case of: let's build a road/bridge/thing, need some dough, let's apply to the EU. Isn't that the way it works?

Seems a little unfair to blame the EU then really, unless they're the ones dictating where the money is spent and on what...cue argument with the usual suspects.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Based on the Brexit campaign Phase 1 to Birmingham at £55bn would pay for around 180 new hospitals!!

And here are some of the skilful, wonderful, dedicated people who might work in those hospitals,

That does raise some interesting questions. For example, why are we incapable of training enough of our own medical staff? What gives us the right to go about other countries poaching their trained (presumably at great expense) best people? Do Spain, Ireland and Greece have a surplus of good medics they don't need, or are we taking staff their populations really could do with? If they have trained a surplus, how come they're so much better at training enough people than we are?

 

[Jacob]

.....) ... or might I just be a little cynical. :?

Surely not! Our resident optimist - always putting a positive slant on everything! :lol: :lol: :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHPOzQzk9Qo

 

[Cheshirechappie]

We seem to have started a fashion - there's growing demand for referendums of one sort or another across Europe, it appears.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... u-members/

 

[Wuffles]

Based on the Brexit campaign Phase 1 to Birmingham at £55bn would pay for around 180 new hospitals!!

And here are some of the skilful, wonderful, dedicated people who might work in those hospitals,

That does raise some interesting questions. For example, why are we incapable of training enough of our own medical staff? What gives us the right to go about other countries poaching their trained (presumably at great expense) best people? Do Spain, Ireland and Greece have a surplus of good medics they don't need, or are we taking staff their populations really could do with? If they have trained a surplus, how come they're so much better at training enough people than we are?

I'm not sure how much of it will matter if Jeremy Hunt gets the PM slot he's now shown an interest in. By which I mean people underestimate the hatred NHS staff of all backgrounds have for him and it will lead to chaos, sorry, more chaos.

 

[Noel]

Did the EU just rock up somewhere and say, "hey you, we're building a road there...no no, let me speak, right there and we don't care how stupid it is"?

Sounds like that's what people think happened.

Was there no involvement in anyone local, at all? Sounds like they gave some money and someone else made a series of bad decisions to me if that's what you guys think about the investment made.

Yes, imagine it is a case of: let's build a road/bridge/thing, need some dough, let's apply to the EU. Isn't that the way it works?

No, it's more a case of, "Here's a pot of money. Do something useful with it."

Certain parts of the EU have been designated 'less favoured areas' and are entitled to said pots of dosh. I'm not sure what the criteria are to be so designated, but it's probably something along the lines of economic activity per person in a region, compared to the national average, or whatever. There are several such areas in the UK.

It doesn't always work out. I was heavily involved in a heritage railway in North Wales some years ago. It turned out that we were eligible for an EU grant (by some means or other) through the local council. It didn't happen because the council didn't realise that they were entitled to said pot of dosh for worthy projects until about three months before the cut-off date, so the whole area lost out.

Sometimes, areas get their pot of dosh and then look for things to spend it on. There are, I gather, some beautifully-engineered new roads in parts of Spain, running through virtually uninhabited areas, and connecting nowhere to nowhere.

It was probably all done with good intent, but it's a good example of trying to manage from too far away. A new road sounds great, but it might be more useful to an area to generate economic activity to put traffic on it, and I'm not convinced that remote government is always very successful in promoting that.

No, nothing is offered/given without application. You really think (Cornwall in this instance) the local council checked their account one morning and saw millions lodged and a wee note saying: "here, heard you're skint, need to build a few things, here's a few quid to help you out."?
From your tale of the Welsh railway project surely you should've made your council aware of available funding, or done some campaigning? Perhaps you should have contacted your MEP, or spoken to your local EU office? It's hardly rocket science.
And surely if you had 3 months to work something out why didn't you?
No doubt there are some projects that could've been better managed around Europe but the EU don't "manage from too far away", that's like popping around to your local bank, getting a £20k loan and heading straight to Cheltenham and coming home without a brass farthing. Was it the bank's fault? The EU fund, the local council or whatever do the managing bit...

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Noel - as I understand it (I wasn't directly involved) the railway contacted the council's Grants Officer to see what was available, and was told nothing at present. It came to light months later that there was a relevant EU fund the Grants Officer should have known about, but didn't; he lost his job (so it must have been serious - to get sacked by a council you really have to screw up big-time). The fund was one that was open for about five years, but an application took six months or so to process. The council found out after four years and nine months. There was quite a stink about it in the local papers at the time, especially as the neighbouring council was crowing about the projects they'd funded. I don't think there was big money involved; enough to refurbish a public toilet block or install footpath signage, that sort of thing. Certainly not enough to build a railway.

Incompetence is not an exclusive preserve of the EU, sadly.

 

[heimlaga]

We seem to have started a fashion - there's growing demand for referendums of one sort or another across Europe, it appears.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06 ... u-members/

The Perussuomalaiset or "Finns party" as the Telegraph translates it have other things on their program as well. One thing is deportation of the entire Swedish minority on the coast. Some 300000 people. We have been here since long before there was a Sweden nor a Finland nor any borders nor governments anywhere in northern Europe. Long before christianity and written records. Long before any Finns moved to this region. Still Perussuomalaiset say that we are newcomers and must leave our homeland to the Finns.

What worries me is that the very much needed ond much deserved critisism against EU in many cases come from that sort of toxic movements. If they succeed we will end up with a wave of massacres and etchnical clensings and deportations and of cause millions of European refugees looking for somewhere to stay. Probably a few full scale wars between European states. Not a very bright future.

What Europe needs in my oppinion is an EU-critic movement that is more matter-of-fact and down-to-point and not agressive towards ordinary people. The longer the establishment holds down all forms of critisism against the EU oligarchy and even in many cases actively directs agressions away from themselves and towards innocent foreigners or ethnical minorities the more people will flock to the facists and the more destructive the eventual turnover will be.
We need to stop that toxic development very quickly before we find our selves caught up in a new world war.

 

[Wuffles]

When you mention "toxic movements" it'll be denied by people here, you see, even though a large number of the "get them out" crowd voted for Brexit in the UK, they're just a few mindless bigots we can ignore. Apparently. Even though incidents involving "foreigners" are up 57% or something since the vote.

 

[Jacob]

..... The longer the establishment holds down all forms of critisism against the EU oligarchy and even in many cases actively directs agressions away from themselves and towards innocent foreigners or ethnical minorities the more people will flock to the facists and the more destructive the eventual turnover will be.
We need to stop that toxic development very quickly before we find our selves caught up in a new world war.

The thin end of the wedge is objection to free movement. At the other end is movement by force. This leads to Auschwitz.

 

[RobinBHM]

I have to say the speech Nigel Farage gave to the European parliament, where he tells the MEP's they have never had a proper job, is really putting the EU in a negotiating frame of mind

I dont like Juncker, but had to smile when he said 'what are you doing here?'

 

[Noel]

I have to say the speech Nigel Farage gave to the European parliament, where he tells the MEP's they have never had a proper job, is really putting the EU in a negotiating frame of mind

I dont like Juncker, but had to smile when he said 'what are you doing here?'

Got to agree with you Robin (and Juncker), enjoyed this from the Belgian MEP:

Belgian ex-Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt, who leads the liberal group in the European parliament, said Mr Farage had used "Nazi propaganda" in the referendum campaign, referring to a poster showing lines of refugees.
"Finally we are going to get rid of the biggest waste in the EU budget, which we have paid for 17 years, your salary!" he told Mr Farage.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Churchill clearly isn't one of Farages role models - Winston in WWII:

“In War: Resolution,
In Defeat: Defiance,
In Victory: Magnaminity
In Peace: Good Will.”

Gloating, insulting and arrogant behaviour in the EU Parliament this morning - the sort of language and delivery one may use in a pub argument (an environment I gather he is familiar with). I sincerely hope Boris has crossed his name off the negotiating team!

 

[Benchwayze]

Wuffles.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I would be obliged if you would stop accusing ALL BREXIT voters of racism. I voted 'leave' because I don't like being considered as 'nothing but a dog cowpat' by smug, arrogant toads like Junker & Co.

Immigration didn't enter into my reckoning, because :

a) I have enough sense to realise the value of most of the immigrants who come to this country:

b) I have a great deal of admiration for the immigrants who so devotedly help me and others like me, care for my invalid spouse. These sentiments extend to many others of their kind who keep our hospitals and care homes above water.
and

c) I empathise with them, knowing their reasons for coming here.

All racists might be Brexiters, but definitely not all Brexiters are racist.

Likewise not ALL immigrants are 'Remainers'!

Quite early, on the day after the referendum, one of my wife's carers arrived to tend to my wife. The woman asked me the result of the referendum.

When I told her, she actually did a dance for joy and went upstairs to rouse my wife, by whooping with glee!
Yes, she is of Jamaican origin, and she is a Blessing, by name and by nature. Also among the immigrant carers who come to my home, she is not alone in her views.

If it happens that you are not really calling ALL of us racist, then I apologise, but you must admit you do keep going on about Brexit and racism... as if the two are inextricably linked. SO please make it clear you are NOT generalising.

Sorry for bringing this up, old chap, but your intimations are getting on my nerves a little.

Respectfully

John

 

[Wuffles]

Wuffles.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I would be obliged if you would stop accusing ALL BREXIT voters of racism. I voted 'leave' because I don't like being considered as 'nothing but a dog cowpat' by smug, arrogant toads like Junker & Co.

Immigration didn't enter into my reckoning, because :

a) I have enough sense to realise the value of most of the immigrants who come to this country:

b) I have a great deal of admiration for the immigrants who so devotedly help me and others like me, care for my invalid spouse. These sentiments extend to many others of their kind who keep our hospitals and care homes above water.
and

c) I empathise with them, knowing their reasons for coming here.

All racists might be Brexiters, but definitely not all Brexiters are racist.

Likewise not ALL immigrants are 'Remainers'!

Quite early, on the day after the referendum, one of my wife's carers arrived to tend to my wife. The woman asked me the result of the referendum.

When I told her, she actually did a dance for joy and went upstairs to rouse my wife, by whooping with glee!
Yes, she is of Jamaican origin, and she is a Blessing, by name and by nature. Also among the immigrant carers who come to my home, she is not alone in her views.

If it happens that you are not really calling ALL of us racist, then I apologise, but you must admit you do keep going on about Brexit and racism... as if the two are inextricably linked. SO please make it clear you are NOT generalising.

Sorry for bringing this up, old chap, but your intimations are getting on my nerves a little.

Respectfully

John

I've never said that, sorry if you think I have.

I'll PM you my post from yesterday where I explained that the racist element is unfortunately in the same bucket of leavers as those with legitimate reasons. It was largely ignored to be fair.

I posted the quote from Billy Bragg where he stated (more or less what you have above) "not all leavers are racists, but all racists will be voting leave" well over a week ago, which was met with indignation from someone here who countered with something along the lines of "not all remainers are idiots, but all idiots will be voting remain" - brilliant response, well thought out.