Who is in and who is out?

[Noel]

Wasn't HS2 a government/Dept of Transport idea? Supported by public/private money. They then applied to one of the EU infrastructure funds for further finance, which I think they got.

 

[RogerS]

Wasn't HS2 a government/Dept of Transport idea? Supported by public/private money. They then applied to one of the EU infrastructure funds for further finance, which I think they got.

Chicken or egg ? From one of my links.

A Trans-European Railway (TEN-R)

The High Speed Rail line was defined by EU Council Directive 96/48/EC as far back as 23 July 1996. A Trans-European Union Railway (TEN-R) was intended to cover the whole of the EU and HS2 was the main part of its High Speed design in Britain as was an ‘HS3’.

 

[Jacob]

I have read somewhere long ago that the intention was to have fast links between far outposts of the EU, and the intention was to extend it to Scotland. In an age when so much business is done on line and people are people are being encouraged to work from home it always made little sense to me. If it cut an eight hour trip to three or something like that it might have been defensible, but what was it to cut - 20mins or something like that? In any case all it would succeed in doing would be to turn a few more villages and small towns into dormitories for London. It would be obsolete before it was completed anyway.

Right . So it might have been a good idea but has been superseded by the net etc.

 

[stuartpaul]

Osbourne has announced that taxes will go up.

Not sure if it's genuine, his way of saying "look what Boris and his mates made me do", or a way to raise public support for more negotiations.

Fair point or sour grapes from Osborne - "It was not the responsibility of those who wanted to remain in the EU to explain what plan we would follow if we voted to quit the EU."

Before taxes go up he's going to need to demonstrate quite clearly why there's a need otherwise it just becomes a punishment for all.

I'd want to see concrete, independent reasoning why it's necessary.

As far as I'm concerned the NHS is nothing short of fantastic but is and will continue to be a money pit. Older population, advances in medicine, adverts telling me to use it if I suspect x, y or z. Long may it prosper.

 

[Wuffles]

Osbourne has announced that taxes will go up.

Not sure if it's genuine, his way of saying "look what Boris and his mates made me do", or a way to raise public support for more negotiations.

Fair point or sour grapes from Osborne - "It was not the responsibility of those who wanted to remain in the EU to explain what plan we would follow if we voted to quit the EU."

Before taxes go up he's going to need to demonstrate quite clearly why there's a need otherwise it just becomes a punishment for all.

I'd want to see concrete, independent reasoning why it's necessary.

As far as I'm concerned the NHS is nothing short of fantastic but is and will continue to be a money pit. Older population, advances in medicine, adverts telling me to use it if I suspect x, y or z. Long may it prosper.

He has already said even though there's a need for an emergency budget, it won't be by him, it'll be under the next PM.

 

[MIGNAL]

I've long thought that HS2 was a project foisted on us by the EU, though I've never found any evidence to back that up. .....

Then why think it, still less say it?

Otherwise I agree.

I like this quote from Banksy:

“You're mind is working at its best when you're being paranoid. You explore every avenue and possibility of your situation
at high speed with total clarity.”
The Brexit lot seem to do this kind of thing in huge doses. Probably spend too much time on certain Youtube videos.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I have read somewhere long ago that the intention was to have fast links between far outposts of the EU, and the intention was to extend it to Scotland. In an age when so much business is done on line and people are people are being encouraged to work from home it always made little sense to me. If it cut an eight hour trip to three or something like that it might have been defensible, but what was it to cut - 20mins or something like that? In any case all it would succeed in doing would be to turn a few more villages and small towns into dormitories for London. It would be obsolete before it was completed anyway.

Right . So it might have been a good idea but has been superseded by the net etc.

No, but it is stupid on one hand to encourage people to work from home and on the other do your best to encourage them not to.

 

[Wuffles]

I have read somewhere long ago that the intention was to have fast links between far outposts of the EU, and the intention was to extend it to Scotland. In an age when so much business is done on line and people are people are being encouraged to work from home it always made little sense to me. If it cut an eight hour trip to three or something like that it might have been defensible, but what was it to cut - 20mins or something like that? In any case all it would succeed in doing would be to turn a few more villages and small towns into dormitories for London. It would be obsolete before it was completed anyway.

Right . So it might have been a good idea but has been superseded by the net etc.

No, but it is stupid on one hand to encourage people to work from home and on the other do your best to encourage them not to.

Not everyone embraces technology Phil. Oh wait.

HS2 was just a govt vanity project to show they care about the North wasn't it? I'll be extremely happy it's been shelved if it is.

Anyone seen the John Oliver Brexit Update on Youtube, the original "before" edition was funny? NSFW (meaning NOT SAFE FOR WORK) due to swears.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh0ac5HUpDU

 

[Woodmatt]

Wales has its own mini HS2 its called the Heads of the Valleys road.A road to a large extend funded by EU (our) money.It cuts through large section of countryside and will shorten journey times considerably.It passes through some of the highest Leave vote areas so clearly EU funding has not persuaded locals that the EU and its money is something we should keep.The reason in my view is that a lot of those Leave voters have no jobs no prospect of jobs and cannot afford to run cars along this wonderful new road so it only really helps the ones who would have already voted remain.In a nut shell it sums up the disconnect between inners and outers.

 

[Jacob]

Wales has its own mini HS2 its called the Heads of the Valleys road.A road to a large extend funded by EU (our) money.It cuts through large section of countryside and will shorten journey times considerably.It passes through some of the highest Leave vote areas so clearly EU funding has not persuaded locals that the EU and its money is something we should keep.The reason in my view is that a lot of those Leave voters have no jobs no prospect of jobs and cannot afford to run cars along this wonderful new road so it only really helps the ones who would have already voted remain.In a nut shell it sums up the disconnect between inners and outers.

Nail on the head. Public infrastructure investments are good (in principle at least) but they don't address the immediate problems of the hard-up or unemployed in the region. We need more money invested directly into people - higher benefits and more security for a better quality of life.
This is an ancient problem - governments/rulers/kings n queens have always spent on conspicuous public shows, or utilities, for better or worse, but have always been reluctant to give money to the people direct.
The universal basic income could be the answer, and is on the cards with the EU.
There's no point in poverty and there's no point in excessive wealth, so the solution is obvious - invest in human capital.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

HS2 may not have been an EU funded project, but it would be difficult to tell the difference - rapidly escalating cost estimates, trivial consumer benefits (a few minutes off journey times), marginal financial benefits only after the figures had been massaged, and a full service delivery date so far into the future that demand may have been overtaken by changed behaviours (eg home working, etc)

Based on the Brexit campaign Phase 1 to Birmingham at £55bn would pay for around 180 new hospitals!! WE could buy even more with the Phase 2 money to Manchester.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

We've got a £27,000,000 road that goes from well, really, nowhere to nowhere. It doesn't really connect anything that wasn't connected before, it just cuts out a couple of back roads and doesn't even make your journey much easier. It's supposed to ensure another 6000 jobs by 2030 - but we know the pattern, the council will bribe firms to come down by giving them periods free of rates, they move in, import their management, pay the rest the minimum wage, and move again when the rates revert to normal. Very, very few ever stay. The main benefactors of these schemes are the people and firms who run them.

 

[custard]

Based on the Brexit campaign Phase 1 to Birmingham at £55bn would pay for around 180 new hospitals!!

And here are some of the skilful, wonderful, dedicated people who might work in those hospitals,

 

[MIGNAL]

HS2 may not have been an EU funded project, but it would be difficult to tell the difference - rapidly escalating cost estimates, trivial consumer benefits (a few minutes off journey times), marginal financial benefits only after the figures had been massaged, and a full service delivery date so far into the future that demand may have been overtaken by changed behaviours (eg home working, etc)

Based on the Brexit campaign Phase 1 to Birmingham at £55bn would pay for around 180 new hospitals!! WE could buy even more with the Phase 2 money to Manchester.

Or you could use the same amount of money to upgrade the entire network/electrification to the benefit of a far greater number of rail users.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

"We need more money invested directly into people - higher benefits ..." - Jacob.
Really? We have people in this area picking up on benefits two, two and half and up to as much as three times what they could conceivably earn - how much more would you give them?

 

[Benchwayze]

What is it with Hospitals and hills? QA in Portsmouth is built on a steep hill (it's all level inside though) and when it snows or gets icy the A&E ambulances can't get to it. I'm a member of Hampshire Police Resilience and when it's bad (generally floods or snow) we get tasked with getting staff and resources where they need to be and that includes towing the ambulances up the hill into A&E


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the QA! That takes me back to the fifties. :wink: 8)

 

[Woodmatt]

I can't say I agree with further or increased benefits per say.In roughly the same area as the Head of Valley road is a proposal for the Circuit of Wales a privately funded project for a new state of the art Race circuit but it needs a Welsh Government guarantee to cover 70% of the funding which the government will not give.This would create building jobs in the construction phase and then potential engineering jobs that would support the race companies.It would bring tourists to the area during the racing season.Both TVR and Aston Martin are or were bringing new factories to the area and would have been using the circuit facilities for testing so there could be real jobs rather than handouts .EU money could have been used to support that project instead of a useless road and then locals would have seen a real benefit from the EU.

 

[Wuffles]

Did the EU just rock up somewhere and say, "hey you, we're building a road there...no no, let me speak, right there and we don't care how stupid it is"?

Sounds like that's what people think happened.

Was there no involvement in anyone local, at all? Sounds like they gave some money and someone else made a series of bad decisions to me if that's what you guys think about the investment made.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Undoubtedly - our idiots don't need help, but I don't doubt there are plans of which we are told nothing.

 

[Rhossydd]

We've got a £27,000,000 road that goes from well, really, nowhere to nowhere.

what road are you actually talking about here ?