Who is in and who is out?

[Jacob]

Nuclear is cheap relative to wind and solar, mainly because it is fairly reliable

Not if you factor in the cost of waste disposal and the risk of accidents.
In any case the green alternatives are getting cheaper and more efficient by the minute.

....
The main point is that the UK is no longer able to set it's own energy policy. UK energy policy must comply with EU directives. ....

That's OK by me. These issues are critical and global - bigger than the EU.

 

[RogerS]

....
In any case the green alternatives are getting cheaper and more efficient by the minute.

.

Regrettably Jacob, just because you say this is true does not necessarily make it so. Yes, they might be getting cheaper and more efficient but by how much exactly? 0.001% ?

 

[Jacob]

....
In any case the green alternatives are getting cheaper and more efficient by the minute.

.

Regrettably Jacob, just because you say this is true does not necessarily make it so. Yes, they might be getting cheaper and more efficient but by how much exactly? 0.001% ?

Google it. Let us know the outcome.

 

[RogerS]

So the Cookie Law is trivial, eh? Well, popped into my local the other night and asked one of the young lads behind the bar if he was In or Out ....half expecting him to say In as that is what the Remain crowd would have us believe. To my surprise he said that he couldn't make up his mind and neither could his friends. So I explained the Cookie Law to him.

I popped in this lunchtime and asked him if he'd made his mind up. 'Yes' he replied. 'I hate clicking that damn cookie button and so do my mates so that's as good a reason to vote Out that any that we can think of.' They're going to stick the idea up on their Facebook and Twitter pages.

I call that a result

 

[RogerS]

....
In any case the green alternatives are getting cheaper and more efficient by the minute.

.

Regrettably Jacob, just because you say this is true does not necessarily make it so. Yes, they might be getting cheaper and more efficient but by how much exactly? 0.001% ?

Google it. Let us know the outcome.

Troll. Troll. Troll. You claimed it. Down to you to prove it. Or stop trolling.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Nuclear is cheap relative to wind and solar, mainly because it is fairly reliable

Not if you factor in the cost of waste disposal and the risk of accidents.
In any case the green alternatives are getting cheaper and more efficient by the minute.

....
The main point is that the UK is no longer able to set it's own energy policy. UK energy policy must comply with EU directives. ....

That's OK by me. These issues are critical and global - bigger than the EU.

Problem is - nuclear is reliable and delivers a lot of electricity to the grid. Wind and solar don't - wind doesn't deliver when the wind isn't blowing, and solar doesn't work when it's dark - and no amount of 'improvements' are going to solve those fundamental drawbacks. So on a cold winter's night when there's no wind, what keeps the lights on?

 

[RogerS]

.... So on a cold winter's night when there's no wind, what keeps the lights on?

All that Hot Air from a certain quarter ? :wink:

 

[Jacob]

... So on a cold winter's night when there's no wind, what keeps the lights on?

We shall see (or not as the case may be). Times they are a changin' whether you like it or not.
One thing is certain and that is that a lot of lights will have to go off but there's a huge amount of waste at present so there's plenty of room for reduction.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

... So on a cold winter's night when there's no wind, what keeps the lights on?

We shall see (or not as the case may be). Times they are a changin' whether you like it or not.
One thing is certain and that is that a lot of lights will have to go off but there's a huge amount of waste at present so there's plenty of room for reduction.

There's absolutely no technical reason why the lights will have to go off. The only reasons for it being a present and growing risk are political - the EU dictating how the UK can generate its electricity.

Vote Leave to make keeping the lights on more likely in the medium to long term.

 

[Jacob]

... So on a cold winter's night when there's no wind, what keeps the lights on?

We shall see (or not as the case may be). Times they are a changin' whether you like it or not.
One thing is certain and that is that a lot of lights will have to go off but there's a huge amount of waste at present so there's plenty of room for reduction.

There's absolutely no technical reason why the lights will have to go off. ...

There is urgent need for (CO2 generating) energy use reduction due to the risks of climate change - caused almost entirely by fossil fuel use.
I thought everybody knew this?

 

[MIGNAL]

Solar efficiency is increasing at around 0.3% per year, so around 3% in the last 10 years. There are some higher efficiency panels by the likes of Panasonic, so likely those improve on that 3%.
Biggest savings are to be had from better standard of houses. My sisters yearly heating bill barely touches £250 per year. Modern high standard flat. Mine is more like £2,000 per year, old Victorian house.

 

[RobinBHM]

Renewable energy sources seem a great idea, free energy and all that.

But they are far from free.

They have huge set up costs to produce a very small amount of energy.

They cant be used all the time, or produce when power isnt needed so a full back up is required.

Efficiency is skewed as renewables have large subsidies. Also some of the contractors involved in setting up wind farms seem to make large pay packets from it.

 

[Jacob]

Yes insulation is priority. We've spent a bomb on it in our chapel conversion but you can feel the benefit!

Solar energy efficiency may be slow to improve but cost of installation is going down fast and expected to hit 10% per annum. Prospects look good, it's not all bad news!

Renewable energy sources seem a great idea, free energy and all that.

But they are far from free.

Nobody says they are free - they are expected to be expensive, but the cost of not using them looks likely to be far greater.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

There is urgent need for (CO2 generating) energy use reduction due to the risks of climate change - caused almost entirely by fossil fuel use.
I thought everybody knew this?

Even if you assume that to be true, it makes nuclear generation a sensible option. Unfortunately, since the EU don't class nuclear as a renewable, we still have to spend far too much of other people's money installing kit that doesn't really deliver, just to satisfy an EU directive.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Solar efficiency is increasing at around 0.3% per year, so around 3% in the last 10 years. There are some higher efficiency panels by the likes of Panasonic, so likely those improve on that 3%.

It still doesn't work when it's dark, which during a UK winter is most of the time. It doesn't work at peak efficiency when it's cloudy, which during a UK winter is most of the time. The highest demand for electricity in the UK is also during the winter.

All in all, solar is not really the best option for electricity generation in the UK, except as a very small occasional niche contributor.

 

[mind_the_goat]

http://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...ent-continues-to-resist-onshore-a6685326.html
http://www.theguardian.com/environm...g-more-electricity-than-coal?CMP=share_btn_tw

Wind power getting cheaper all the time, onshore is less than price agreed for Hinkly power (which does include the build cost)
Does anyone here actually believe that fossil fuel generation is not benefiting from subsidies?

The was an earlier comment about waste, yes absolutely, this is called low efficiency and is exactly the reason the EU are creating directives to encourage manufacturers to increase it. this applies to many things, hoovers and kettles included and makes absolute sense. How many people here are using less fuel because EU regulations forced manufacturers to focus effort on this. I seem to remember some manufacturers claimed the limits were unreasonable but they all (maybe not VW) managed to achieve the limits very quickly.

Seems Ironic that both Wind and Solar capacities may be boosted by the climate change they are helping to limit, more wind, more sun, at least in the short term, till the Gulf Stream stops.

I still don't understand why new houses are not built with solar panels and efficient heating systems, we clearly need an EU directive on this

 

[Rhossydd]

(maybe not VW)

VW still are very good at low CO2 emissions, it's NO2 pollutants that are/were the issue.
They got caught, others get away with it. (See the Panorama last year that investigated the issue. VW three times over the claimed NO2 emission, Vauxhall so bad it was off the scale)

 

[Phil Pascoe]

If all new builds and re purposed development had solar panels and all commercial developments had to cover their roofs completely with them by law, it would make sense as the prices would really tumble and it would also end the stupidity of first class farm land being used for solar farms because of subsidies. At present there is not one commercial system that makes economic sense without subsidies. There is an argument for primitive home made solar thermal - it's not rocket science, nor need it be expensive to warm up warm up water with sunshine.
My friend, who was fortunate he could afford it at the time, is now raking the money at our expense - his 16Kw system is past its payback time with ten years more life expectancy and he's still getting nearly 42p a unit.

 

[mind_the_goat]

All in all, solar is not really the best option for electricity generation in the UK, except as a very small occasional niche contributor.

It's a great way to cover the increased load caused by air conditioning units on hot days.
Seriously though, no one thinks we can run the whole country on Solar and wind power (although we do have a lot of wind) (quite a lot on this thread too ) Heavy reliance on nuclear would give the opposite problem in that it's hard to adjust quickly. Tides seem an obvious predictable solution but that technology is still too expensive, or causes other environmental impacts to shorelines. There are some interesting storage options being looked at, these make more sense with solar and wind as there may well be effectively free spare capacity at certain times. There is certainly no single solution to this but it's a no brainer to make the best use of the 'free' energy when it's available and only bring in fossil fuel options when absolutely necessary. Yes it may cost more in the short term, but unless you don't have kids that should not be your primary concern.

One other thing, if we ever come up with some new non polluting and cheap energy source, we can just dismantle the wind turbines and solar installations, not quite so simple with current nuclear technology, or it's waste storage systems.

 

[RogerS]

Wuffles on another thread reminded me of yet another piece of duff EU legislation - namely mucking about with the Credit Card reward schemes - rendering some schemes virtually worthless overnight (including ours) - thanks a bunch, EU, and for what ?