Who is in and who is out?

UKworkshop.co.uk

Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Cheshirechappie":mip7vu5a said:
MIGNAL":mip7vu5a said:
Well that's it then. Simple. We don't need no trade deals nor do we need to negotiate. The little % that is levied as import duty is such a small amount it's hardly worth worrying about.
Maybe CC can give me 6% of £2,500 every other month. That's effectively what might be levied on my exports.(it is to the US).

Firstly - you are quite right; we don't need a trade deal in order to trade. The EU currently does not have a trade deal with the US, so presumably your customers are currently paying import duties of whatever percent every other month. If we leave, nothing changes for two years, so that would presumably continue unchanged. After that, rates may change to WTO recommended ones, or we may (despite O'barmas threats) negotiate a free trade deal, which given that one country would be negotiating with one other, wouldn't be the protracted episode TTIP has turned into.

So, for you, surrendering the right to elect the people who govern us in favour of an unelected and unaccountable self-selecting 'government' in Brussels is worth it for 6% of £2500 every other month? Must admit, I'd set my price for that higher. A lot higher.

No doubt you are financially in a comfortable position. I am not. There's many like me. I can't risk losing my job, at my age I'm very unlikely to have the opportunity to get another.
What you have tellingly failed to understand is it's not just the 6% of £2,500. It's the real possibility of a slump in orders due to that 6%. In fact it could quite easily be more than 6% due to possible import duties on raw materials coming the other way. Doesn't seem to me that you understand how a business works and certainly not a small craftsman business like mine.
You are welcome to donate 6% of £2,500 every other month to me though. I might consider Brexit if you agree to do that.
 
Jacob":395r2vx0 said:
We should be leading in Europe, not leaving it.
Brexit is for the timid.


That really is the crux of the matter.

We should be leadjng Europe absolutely correct, but we cant, havent and wont......
 
RobinBHM":2iqfdwo2 said:
Jacob":2iqfdwo2 said:
We should be leading in Europe, not leaving it.
Brexit is for the timid.


That really is the crux of the matter.

We should be leadjng Europe absolutely correct, but we cant, havent and wont......
Not whilst we are feebly wallying about, half in half out, wittering about trivial details, with useless UKIP MEPs who take the salaries and expenses but don't turn up to do their job.
If our attitude to the EU is so feeble and defeatist do we really think we are suddenly going to get positive and proactive out on our own? No chance!
I don't know why we are having this referendum - it just seems to be about manifesto promises mollifying the weak spirited, and if they get their way it could be disastrous and a huge missed opportunity.
 
Half in half out? So I assume that you'd want us to have the Euro and pour our cash into Greece etc? I for one am very glad we're not in the euro.

I was on the fence for a long time. The known vs the unknown but for me two things became clear:

Firstly and most importantly we get to elect our government every 5 years. We have no say in who our European Commissioner is and we have very little say in the laws that get passed. So the lack of democracy is enough alone to make me want out.

I want us to control our borders. Let me be clear I am not against immigration or the freedom of movement (in principal it's a great thing), but it has to be balanced. At the moment we have a huge net gain yet we have a housing crisis and when did you last see a new hospital built? The net gain has to be housed, have health services, roads, schools and infrastructure and currently I don't see any of these expanding to cope.

I also don't like the fact that we can have foreigners in this country who are actively speaking out against UK citizens and saying that we need to be slaughtered yet we cannot deport them because the European Court of Human rights says so, even after our own high courts have said that they can be.

I'd like to make it clear that I'm not against the many thousands of peaceful Muslims (and other religions) that live in this wonderful multicultural society of ours, just the ones that want to kill my children.

Going back a few years our politicians use to talk about us as a great nation and speak about national pride but I can't remember the last time I heard any of them do that. I'd like to see us become a little bit proud of our own nation once again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
stuartpaul":d7oqr89r said:
I find it interesting how each 'side' has its particular spin. For example, that article makes much of the dastardly EU reduction in vacuum cleaner power. On the face of it a good example of an overbearing approach from that damned Jonny foreigner!

However, if you take a more considered approach then surely an attempt to reduce power consumption and hence a reduction in greenhouse gases overall is to be welcomed?

Incidently, the latest Which tests show no reduction in efficiency despite this reduced power.

Its not all bad, - despite what some want us to think.

Oh my deus....

Are you seriously suggesting that the reduction in power of a vaccum cleaner is going to have ANY measurable impact on power consumption?

I don't wish to be insulting, but if you do I am forced to assume you live in an earth ship (a house made mostly of "waste materials", with a negative energy bill (you provide your own electricity through solar power and sell your excess back to the grid), grow ALL your own food and have a zero carbon footprint and consider your once weekly vaccuum as a high drain "necessary evil".

One possible legislation they could force on us and that would be welcomed by many regarding excess power usage would be to force all office buildings across the land to cut the power between set hours - except that server farms and all computer networks would have to remain on... and a bunch of other stuff like lights so the security can see on their rounds and, and, and....

So legislating the power consumption of a vaccum cleaner compared to the incredibly high wastage of power in commercial use seems like a terribly bad april fools - and yet there are obviously those that fall for it; and not only that but hold it aloft as a good reason to stay within the EU.

Can you honestly not see that this is a measure taken to level the playing field regarding vaccum cleaner choice? That this was probably backed by one or more companies that cannot produce a machine equal in power or quality to those of a higher rating? (which regularly happens)

That's very likely the true reason behind it because nothing else makes even remote sense when compared to power wasted elsewhere.
 
Terry - Somerset":3dwxv0lf said:
The referendum is a once in a lifetime (or at least generation) chance to vote. It is potentially life changing for ourselves and our children. We should not be distracted by what is really trivia - often the sort of stuff politicians and media focus on to the exclusion of what is actually important.

EU intrusion in day to day life is mostly trivial. Schools and health services can be fixed by the government if they have the will and a bouyant economy to fund it - you said it brother. I don't care about the shape of tomatoes or cucumbers - although regulations on vegetable size create waste. ( some crops are running at 40% waste because of EU legislation, costing the farmers tens of thousands in lost revenue )I am not worried about immigration. Their work is of value in the community and competition drives prices down and quality up. (you mean the ones that are actually working, right?)

The big things are the economy, sovereignty and security.

I have no doubt that the economy will suffer materially if we leave. Despite glib assertions, we will not quickly sign new trade deals etc. At best we will have a rough ride for 5 years+ as inward investment falls and new deals (hopefully) set up. Thereafter its just guesswork. Our economy, while not buoyant as you have clearly stated is still far healthier than many other EU countries, so what part of an EU based companies ethos to benefit from this and make profitable sales within the UK do you think will suddenly stop because we are no longer members of the EU? Money is the great overrider and companies will ALWAYS find a way to supply to a willing market - oh and pay attention again to the bit about how our farmers / fisheries are seriously suffering because of unnecessary / almost criminally biased EU legislation

Sovereignty is emotive - but ask yourself whether (a) you really have greater trust in a Westminster elite and (b) how is your life materially adversely impacted by being 1 of 28. Most people don't know just how adversely - you included it seems, but here's a thing, when you went to school how many were there in class and if you have children how many are there in class now, and did you check that figure before sending your child to that school? Do you think it's more beneficial that there are more now than before, and do you think that the schools that boast having small class numbers and better education standards are all lying? Why do you think private schools exist at all? Maybe you think that a school classroom should have 100 children - all of whom have a voice, all of them with conflicting interests and all of them wanting to get the teachers attention.

And it's only 1 of 28 for now - there's already 5 in the wings; broke, corrupt and barely hanging onto what meagre posession they have, all of whom will have their hands out for money before the ink is even dry - try and call me a liar.


Security is partly a NATO function, but I see no real benefits in leaving and a lot of risks. Jaw-jaw and trade-trade is far better than war-war. Membership can only make the chance of a repeat performance of 1914 and 1939 much less likely. You honestly think this is even a remote possibility between the current EU member states even if the whole of EU fell apart? you need to get a better grip on the realities of the 21st C mate - every single one of the current member states might not agree on much but on this they all agree - none of them are a threat to each other, and even if they ever were they all know that N Korea, china, india, pakistan, iran, iraq, possibly even russia (with all this ukraine nonsense) along with a whole bunch of non affiliated radical militant groups all have a far bigger potential to start WW3 than anything in Europe. The fact that you think WW3 may well originate from inside europe as a possibility shows just how little grasp you have of the facts. Oh and syria and possibly some african nations who may be on the brink of becoming a nuclear power.

In the 1970's the UK was the basket case of Europe. Even rose tinted spectacles don't make the memory any sweeter. (Show evidence that it was SOLELY the EU membership that brought about the change of the 80's and not the extremely hardlined measures of the Thatcher years (bloody hell, never in my life did I ever think I'd say that :) along with other factors and I'll consider it) I am strongly in - although I accept that some may have seen serious personal consequences of membership. But be objective - this is far more important than simply an opportunity to vent frustration with the current government or annoying EU trivia. Boy oh boy....

You are clearly NOT being objective, or informed, because as my coloured answers attest you have no foundation on which to base your beliefs that we are better off IN.

Oh and err Norway - yeah just saying - they refused membership in 1994 and look at them now, no seriously, look - thier standard of life is significantly higher than ours, yes it was before the refusal to be fair; but the salient point is it didn't suddenly nosedive after the refusal, evidence suggest quite the opposite in fact, and they have even less population for foreign companies to trade with and less exports.

And Switzerland.
 
I want Finland out as well. Just now I got to read how the EU has foisted another of it's laws on us and is forcing the Finnish transport business to open up to other countries with shady practices. The way a lot of foreign transport companies are run is basically modern time slavery in the west today. And the EU is defending this vile pile of dung and foisting it on us and ruining our economy and loads of jobs.

Brexit please and then Fixit and why not Grexit too and a load of other *xits.
 
RobinBHM":2th7nsyh said:
Jacob":2th7nsyh said:
We should be leading in Europe, not leaving it.
Brexit is for the timid.


That really is the crux of the matter.

We should be leadjng Europe absolutely correct, but we cant, havent and wont......

No, no, you shouldn't. The days of empire are over. I'd rather not have an EU lording over us, but I'd rather it be the germans then.
 
Cheshirechappie is not alone in saying that or implying that all this 'doom and gloom' talk about lack of trade agreements post-Brexit is just so much hot air and FUD from the Remain camp. In an excellent article in The Times yesterday, Lord Young of Graffam - who amongst many other roles - was enterprise advisor to Cameron 2010-2015 - argues that in todays modern world trade agreements are not even necessary and that some economists that he respects (from Roger Bootle to Patrick Minford) believe that the UK would boost its GDP by 4% in the long term if it abolished all trade agreements.

OK..that is then but what about now ?

The last WTO round was never concluded and yet we're all happily trading with each other.
The EU-US trade deal remains incomplete after a decade. We're still selling and buying stuff there.

The day we leave the EU, we become its largest trading partner. Germany sells 90 billion Euros worth of cars and other manufactured goods to the UK. Is Merkel going to turn round to Mercedes and say 'You must increase your prices by 10%' ? No.

The EU is trying to negotiate a trade deal with the Mercosur group that will let us export £2.5 billion a year to them. It is being held up by France and more than half of EU member states because they fear competition. So the day we leave the EU is the day that we can arrange our own trade agreements.

If we really need them.
 
I'd also add that there is a fundamental difference between the EU way of doing things which is based on the Napoleonic Code and our way. The EU ethos is that you can only do the things that we say you can. Our approach is to say you can do what the hell you like unless it has been legislated against. The EU way stifles creativity and competition.
 
Rhossydd":3lignd0p said:
RogerS":3lignd0p said:
"Overall community" ? Do you really think that your average German, Frenchman or Italian is thinking this ?
Actually yes. Work with Europeans and you'll find they like the idea of being a "European" whilst still having their own regional identity.

This seems to be core of the issue; Can you be English* and European ?
Most mainland Europeans I've talked to seem happy with it, not so sure about people here though.

*Insert regional identity of choice English/Scottish/Cornish/Tuscan/Basque etc. etc.

This well-respected survey would suggest that you are so wrong in saying this.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/06/07/eur ... nd-brexit/
 
I see a majority of Italians think we should Brexit and they may be having a referendum.

So alll is not rosy in the euro camp.
 
rafezetter":2dmapq51 said:
....
Oh my deus....

Are you seriously suggesting that the reduction in power of a vaccum cleaner is going to have ANY measurable impact on power consumption? .....
No of course not on it's own; but it's part of a huge range of other energy saving measures applied across the board which all add up and make a big difference.
The EU isn't all about vacuum cleaner motors and bent cucumbers.
 
rafezetter":1l4pymwh said:
stuartpaul":1l4pymwh said:
I find it interesting how each 'side' has its particular spin. For example, that article makes much of the dastardly EU reduction in vacuum cleaner power. On the face of it a good example of an overbearing approach from that damned Jonny foreigner!

However, if you take a more considered approach then surely an attempt to reduce power consumption and hence a reduction in greenhouse gases overall is to be welcomed?

Incidently, the latest Which tests show no reduction in efficiency despite this reduced power.

Its not all bad, - despite what some want us to think.

Oh my deus....

Are you seriously suggesting that the reduction in power of a vaccum cleaner is going to have ANY measurable impact on power consumption?

I don't wish to be insulting, but if you do I am forced to assume you live in an earth ship (a house made mostly of "waste materials", with a negative energy bill (you provide your own electricity through solar power and sell your excess back to the grid), grow ALL your own food and have a zero carbon footprint and consider your once weekly vaccuum as a high drain "necessary evil".

One possible legislation they could force on us and that would be welcomed by many regarding excess power usage would be to force all office buildings across the land to cut the power between set hours - except that server farms and all computer networks would have to remain on... and a bunch of other stuff like lights so the security can see on their rounds and, and, and....

So legislating the power consumption of a vaccum cleaner compared to the incredibly high wastage of power in commercial use seems like a terribly bad april fools - and yet there are obviously those that fall for it; and not only that but hold it aloft as a good reason to stay within the EU.

Can you honestly not see that this is a measure taken to level the playing field regarding vaccum cleaner choice? That this was probably backed by one or more companies that cannot produce a machine equal in power or quality to those of a higher rating? (which regularly happens)

That's very likely the true reason behind it because nothing else makes even remote sense when compared to power wasted elsewhere.
My turn to not insult ........

Are you not capable of extrapolating the usage of several million vacuum cleaners across Europe and seeing how power consumption can be reduced? Whilst many bemoan it as yet another pointless 'law' at least there is some attempt to reduce consumption.

Add in reductions to kettles, toasters etc. and there could be significant savings. There are many other areas (as you suggest) that can also yield valuable savings. The UK government right on top of it all isn't it?

But of course feel free to believe any conspiracy theories you wish.
 
RogerS":3iapx9mo said:
...... the EU way of doing things which is based on the Napoleonic Code ......
Modern law worldwide is influenced by the Napoleonic Code which is generally regarded as a good thing.

"The Code, with its stress on clearly written and accessible law, was a major step in replacing the previous patchwork of feudal laws. Historian Robert Holtman regards it as one of the few documents that have influenced the whole world."
 
Jacob":1b891whp said:
The referendum question could be re- phrased;

"Should the UK remain as part of the free market, or leave the free market?"

https://medium.com/@calum.moore/brexit- ... .fdzqjxafh

Brexiters, if you haven't read the above, please do. And this one too:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36457120

If we leave the EU, we'll most probably stay in the single market, paying our dues, keeping free movement of people and a lot of EU law. We'll keep most of the downsides, but lose any say in the EU.

There's another interesting figure in that BBC story. Sovereignty remaining with the Westminster government seems to be a fiercely made argument by the leave campaign. But of the MPs sitting in the Westminster parliament, there is a majority of 454 MPs to 147 supporting remain. They obviously regard the erosion of their powers as an acceptable price.
 
Jacob":5qna7d86 said:
RogerS":5qna7d86 said:
...... the EU way of doing things which is based on the Napoleonic Code ......
Modern law worldwide is influenced by the Napoleonic Code which is generally regarded as a good thing.

"The Code, with its stress on clearly written and accessible law, was a major step in replacing the previous patchwork of feudal laws. Historian Robert Holtman regards it as one of the few documents that have influenced the whole world."

Why don't you quote your sources? We can all read Wikipedia ...and we all know just how accurate and unbiased their articles can be.

So...let's take a closer look at historian Robert Holtman. For his view to have any credibility, one would hope that he has written an extensive range of books. So how many has your 'expert' written? Two.

I can't be bothered to check the Page History of this article but I bet money that he inserted that sentence himself.

And where do you get 'generally regarded as a good thing' from ? Where are you quoting that little snippet from? Or is this something from the Bottomless Pit of Waffle and Contrariness aka Trolling from JacobWorld ?
 
Sheffield Tony":8exluzvm said:
Jacob":8exluzvm said:
The referendum question could be re- phrased;

"Should the UK remain as part of the free market, or leave the free market?"

https://medium.com/@calum.moore/brexit- ... .fdzqjxafh

Brexiters, if you haven't read the above, please do. And this one too:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36457120

If we leave the EU, we'll most probably stay in the single market, paying our dues, keeping free movement of people and a lot of EU law. We'll keep most of the downsides, but lose any say in the EU.

That seems like a good solution. Clearly starting new trade agreements with Europe would be a lot of work and time.

Staying in the single market will ensure continuity of trade and market confidence.

Being out of Europe keeps us away from being driven into further integration leading to a federal Europe.

'but lose any say in the EU' -we dont have any say in the EU, never had, never will'
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Back
Top