Who is in and who is out?

[Cheshirechappie]

we would gradually lose our right to trial by jury and habeas corpus

Who is putting about these untruths?
http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/eu- ... as-corpus/
Cui bono again? There's a lot of dodgy people trying to pull wool over our eyes and one of their meanest tricks is to make people alarmed about immigration. Divide and rule.

Eric debunked this one earlier in the thread.

 

[Jacob]

......The Ministers are drawn from the ranks of elected MPs, so are accountable to the electorate. ......

So are MEPs and all the other heads of govts in the EU.

If the worst comes to the worst we do have an option always available - we can withdraw by holding a democratic referendum. We can have one every other week if we so wish!

I'm warming to Eric's cunning plot scenario: there is a massive amount of negative and divisive propaganda about -we are having our strings pulled by agencies who do not wish us well.
The anti immigrant ticket is a big and unpleasant propaganda tool: learn to dislike and distrust your neighbours, think small, keep your head down.
Cui bono? Not you and me to be sure.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... ave-the-eu

 

[Phil Pascoe]

If Varoufakis wants the EU saved, that's an extremely good reason for allowing it to die its natural death.

 

[RobinBHM]

Brexiters are not opposed to free movement, the reality is that the UK is a small island with a high population density and some restrictions do need to be made.

Our infrastructure is struggling and we have a considerable housing shortage.

There is also a massive issue with the migration of refugees across Europe.

 

[Jacob]

....
Our infrastructure is struggling and we have a considerable housing shortage.

This is government policy and you can't blame the immigrants. Blame is a popular game - convenient for the govt to shift the responsibility.
In fact the infrastructure would struggle even more if it were not for the immigrants employed therein.
They are a bit tired these anti immigrant arguments - I think almost everybody has realised they are grossly exaggerated and that the net benefit is highly positive. It's a drum which has been banged too often.

There is also a massive issue with the migration of refugees across Europe.

And a massive duty of care. Being in the EU means a better coordinated approach.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

At what point do you suggest we stop building houses?

 

[Jacob]

At what point do you suggest we stop building houses?

We need to start building more houses - and possibly look at the empty building situation.

 

[DiscoStu]

I don't think you can blame the government for the large net gain of immigration. We have no control on that so I'm not sure how they are meant to cope with an increase in population the size of Newcastle every year. It's not easy to build that level of infrastructure that quickly even if you have the funds. It's not just houses, but Schools, Roads, Hospitals, Police and Other public services all have to grow to cope. Even things like midwives are required and they need training which all takes time. There is no magic wand to some of this stuff.


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[Phil Pascoe]

That doesn't answer the question - when do we stop building them? After another million? Five million? Twenty million?

 

[DiscoStu]

I wasn't really answering that question, but to answer it.

You can't, you can't have people without a roof over their head. So if your supply can't cope then you have to reduce the demand. At the moment there is no way to do either. Exit is the only way to control it.


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[Phil Pascoe]

Sorry, Stu - that was directed at Jacob rather than you.
I've just heard yet again (QT) this time from Hillary Benn that the Australian immigration system does't work as their numbers are going up ... but not a mention of the fact that 1/ they wish to increase their population. 2/ they have a third of our population and 3/ they have thirty two times the space.

 

[DiscoStu]

I think that for us the issue is space and infrastructure. I don't have an issue with immigration but the current rate is not sustainable and we can't do anything to stop it. At least the Australians could change their points system if it wasn't working for them.


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[RobinBHM]

....
Our infrastructure is struggling and we have a considerable housing shortage.

This is government policy and you can't blame the immigrants. Blame is a popular game - convenient for the govt to shift the responsibility.
In fact the infrastructure would struggle even more if it were not for the immigrants employed therein.
They are a bit tired these anti immigrant arguments - I think almost everybody has realised they are grossly exaggerated and that the net benefit is highly positive. It's a drum which has been banged too often.

There is also a massive issue with the migration of refugees across Europe.

And a massive duty of care. Being in the EU means a better coordinated approach.

I do realise it is easy to blame immigrants for housing shortages, NHS problems etc. The opening up of Eastern Europe has certainly been a great benefit to the UK, our strong economy would be seriously held back without foreign workers.

But it is still true, the UK is very densely populated and infrastructure is seriously stretched. An open border policy cant continue forever.

The eu isnt dealing with the migrant crisis, if it was the problem at Calais would exist.

 

[BearTricks]

the Kinnocks turning the EU into a well-paid family business

Probably the best and most accurate quote in this whole thread and one of the most compelling reasons to vote Leave.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

I'd counter that by saying I've met Michael Gove and he was one of the most vile people I've ever had the displeasure of speaking to, not that he paid me much attention. Usually, the way he came across would have a serious bearing on whether I sided with him on a voting issue.

It does annoy me that the people heading the charge on both sides are generally ones I would never want to associate myself with politically.

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[Jacob]

I wasn't really answering that question, but to answer it.

You can't, you can't have people without a roof over their head. So if your supply can't cope then you have to reduce the demand. ...

Or increase the supply.
It's a very artificial problem - given the acceptance that a solution is urgent (say it was a natural catastrophe and no-one could be blamed) then a solution would quickly be found. There's a good deal of inertia on this and deliberate foot dragging. Council house building more or less stopped in 1979 and there are vast numbers of empty properties, let alone 2nd homes etc.
Underlying the supposed immigration problem is the fact that we actually need these people and the country benefits. It's simple - if there's work to be done you need people to do the work.
The anti immigration propaganda is a serious shot in the foot for the country - it's the blame game.

http://www.cornishpastyassociation.co.u ... on-europe/

 

[Phil Pascoe]

http://www.cornishpastyassociation.co.u ... on-europe/
Of course - they've a vested interest. Half of its members are bakers of pasty shaped objects and need all the protection they can get - what would you expect them to say?
Incidentally, a good friend of mine is a baker who's a member of that - and he loathes the EU with a vengeance.

 

[Jacob]

http://www.cornishpastyassociation.co.u ... on-europe/
Of course - they've a vested interest. Half of its members are bakers of pasty shaped objects and need all the protection they can get - what would you expect them to say? ..............

So many people with vested interest in the EU. The EU must be working for them then. :lol:
Glad to hear it, and pleased to hear there aren't any loony pasty EU directives - or have they banned bent pasties?
Only a matter of time. 8)

 

[thetyreman]

we aren't spending £350 million a week, can't believe they are trying to make this lie into a so called 'fact', for that alone they have lost all respect from me.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater

 

[dexter]

Perhaps on the immigration issues we should take a look at factors that influence them. It seems that on the whole, people in the UK are quite happy to have non UK doctors and other highly trained,( at another country's expense) people as immigrants to the UK. They do seem to object to those who come into the UK who want to work but would be classed as " unskilled labour", such as those who work in processing plants or agriculture picking crops and the like.
What about the heaven knows how many UK citizens who don't want to or can't be a---d to do manual work because it's easier to claim benefits or resort to crime rather than do a days work?
Why not MAKE these people work in these jobs? There are clearly enough jobs for them rather than bleeding the state dry. Pay them the living wage, perhaps some of them might even end up with a feeling of self worth and go on to better things. If these people were in work then the oppertunities for migrants to work in the UK would diminish substantially. It's not rocket science, look to the causes of the problems.
If the vote goes for in or out, these people who don't want to or can't be a---d to work because it's easier to claim benefits or resort to crime rather than do a days work will still be there. Let's not blame everyone else for problems of our own making.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Precisely. I have nothing but admiration for the Poles etc. in our area, but I doubt they pay enough tax to keep some idle barsteward sitting on his arrse. It's our system that's wrong. Part of the problem of course is a system so convoluted that it makes no sense once on benefits to take a short term job - it takes forever to get back to the status quo ante when things change, then a few weeks later it might all change again. The ludicrous bit about only being allowed to work 16 hours a week doesn't do any favours, either.
New Zealand went effectively bust (which to all intents and purposes we are) some years ago and the government announced one day that as of such and such a date there would be no social security payments of any type. Cue much wailing and gnashing of teeth. Sorry, says the government, it's not a political decision - we haven't got any money. A year later 90% of the jobless had jobs. They do have a job surplus, but they (as do Canada and Australia) make sure they don't import people to do a job any native can do.
I was there about 18 years ago when they had just done a deal with that allowed the Japs to to export whole cars to them rather than have assembly plants in NZ.hence the closure of the biggest assemby plant, which was welcomed by many as it was the last heavily unionised industry. I heard the employment minister and the shop steward on the radio at about 10am one day - it went thus :
What are you going to do about all my unemployed members?
What do you expect me to do?
Well, sort out jobs.
There are plenty of jobs out there, if they want a well paid one they'll have to find one.
None of them are the sort of jobs my members want.
If they want an income they'll take them - I'll have them out with putty knives lifting f*****g chewing gum from the pavements of Auckland before we pay them for doing nothing ...

Which is as it should be.