Salutary lesson for joinery professionals

[RobinBHM]

Hello Gents,

I am in the initial process of getting an extension built.. which I have no previous experience of.

I have asked an architect to draw up the plans which should be agreed in the next week or so. They will be sent off to planning & building control then be sent out to tender (to 3 of his usual contactors, 1 of which has vans on almost every road in the leafier parts 'round here). If all goes well he will oversee the works.. but there's no QS mentioned. Is it usual for the architect to be PM & also possibly QS ?

I am not having anything built worth channel 4's time but still it is very important that it goes well. I now see that I have already been too.. casual.

What should I be asking for - a contract of what, works ?.. & ask who's contracted to who ?

I am a tradesman & know too much about failed business... & what constantly surprises me is that in an age where communication could hardly be any easier very little proper communication happens (I have lost count how many times I go to install something/a whole kitchen without the services being anywhere near ready)..& too many people are bad payers no matter what their circumstances or the quality of your work & asking for your money definitely does offend.

Thanks for the heads up.

Togs.

The best advise for choosing a builder is still recommendation and go see a recent job, talk to the customer. If possible see a job in progress, organised sites often are a result of organised builders.

Agree on non building aspects before work starts, where can the tradesmen park, where can skips go, what parts of the garden can be spoilt, does the drive need protecting, can the toilet be used.

Discuss any unexpected over costs, especially foundations or foul drainage. If the bco insists on a 2.0 depth of footing or block and beam, you will need to pay more, but a good builder should tell you before work starts there is a risk of extra cost, but he will be able to know when in the project these will be known and a rough guide to what they might be.

Building is all about project management combined with having a good team of sub contractors. Not just about being skilled at building work.

The more you the client plans and makes early decisions, the quicker the build will be. For example, if you decide on floor finish very early on, the builder will know exactly what the reduced dig will be and can anticipate the exact screed thickness, position of door frames etc. If a kitchen extension, work this out early on or you will hold up first fix services etc.

Set up a new email address for the project, deal with all communication though it. Dont text the builder with specs or decisions use the email to keep correspondance stream clear

 

[Togalosh]

Robin,
Good advice/help is much appreciated.
Thank you.
Togs

 

[YorkshireMartin]

This is why architects exist, to prevent this exact scenario. I'm biased but a 450k extension requires some sort of professional oversight from someone who understands both design and construction and I wouldn't suggest a QS for a project management role in this case. A QS is most likely going to be a specialist in very large projects in terms of drawing up a bill of quantities etc rather than contracts management.

Self managing a project is all very well and good, if you have the time and knowledge. Appointing tradesmen directly is not always the best method. An architect of standing can exert influence that the client never can, which is obviously to the benefit of a client.

It's all situational, but generally, an architect is the way to go on a project of this scale. They have rigid professional standards they must adhere to, not to mention professional ethics. They cannot simply appoint Bob the Builder because he is their next door neighbour. Yes, you pay for it, but a good architect can more than pay for themselves overall through either time saved or money saved on materials/labour.

 

[RossJarvis]

This is why architects exist, to prevent this exact scenario. I'm biased but a 450k extension requires some sort of professional oversight from someone who understands both design and construction and I wouldn't suggest a QS for a project management role in this case. A QS is most likely going to be a specialist in very large projects in terms of drawing up a bill of quantities etc rather than contracts management.

Self managing a project is all very well and good, if you have the time and knowledge. Appointing tradesmen directly is not always the best method. An architect of standing can exert influence that the client never can, which is obviously to the benefit of a client.

It's all situational, but generally, an architect is the way to go on a project of this scale. They have rigid professional standards they must adhere to, not to mention professional ethics. They cannot simply appoint Bob the Builder because he is their next door neighbour. Yes, you pay for it, but a good architect can more than pay for themselves overall through either time saved or money saved on materials/labour.

Really? I have never met an architect who has the same level of skill as a good chippy, bricky, etc. Some jobs go well some don't. Essentially you need someone somewhere who knows a good range of trades-folk with an understanding of design. My current architect uses a scale rule to determine dimensions. As an engineer I know this is a completely useless method, which is why engineers print "do not scale from drawing" on their drawings.

You really need a "building project manager" of some sort as most architects can't even find their way out of bed in the morning.

 

[AJB Temple]

I have quite a bit of experience dealing with architects, mostly on commercial residential developments, and that has taught me that some are good at design but few are especially good at project management. The plans were designed by an architect in this case, not very imaginatively IMO, and my friend decided to PM the job himself. This was unwise but he would not be dissuaded. He is an extremely clever man (maths doctorate, oxbridge) but this does not translate into dealing with trades effectively. The QS suggestion was to protect him from builder bull***t - making sure that work was delivered satisfactorily, then paid by tranche against that and any building control inspections, rather than paid on a time elapsed basis. My experience is that a good QS will take no nonsense from builders and as they do it day in day out, all parties usually get along. I recommended one I have worked with a lot, but the builder told my friend he engaged his own surveyor, and he (foolishly) went along with that. He is now seeing the error of his ways. There are a lot of lessons for the unwary in this tale. It has some mileage to run yet.

 

[xraymtb]

I'm a project manager myself (not in the building trade) and too many people underestimate what a good PM does. Just like you need an architect to design a building and a sparky to do the electrics, you really want a knowledgeable PM managing the project.

There's a reason why almost every project that is managed by the client ends up late and over budget. I blame Channel 4...

 

[RobinBHM]

For a large project of £450k value, a project manager seems a very sensible way to go.

Clients have no idea how much work is involved in managing a big project and if you friend has a busy career, he has no chance. Its enough work for a client to keep up with making all the decisions on design details, materials, finishes etc.

Having a contract and an architect on board doesnt prevent problems. I was contracted to build a conservatory for a job
on a listed property. The builder was paid by monthly valuation apparently. He asked me for an invoice of 80% for the conservatory in July last year. We never received a deposit so the project never started. The client and architect started ringing me up in September saying: why hasnt the conservatory been delivered? I did eventually receive a deposit, then we delivered and installed the framework and roof. The conservatory then stayed without roof glass during Dec and Jan because I wasnt paid the installment as agreed and refused to fit the roof glass.

It seems there are 2 sides to the story, the client did pay the 80% deposit, but the builder had cashflow issues due to another project and he couldnt pay me. I understand from the builder that he was in dispute with the client on the project with the conservatory because of serious disagreements on project scope which meant he was losing money. The builder says he was expected to include many things that were not clearly stated on the architects drawings.

It seems a typical case of the builder throwing some pricing at a job and coming unstuck and not having a detailed contract fully itemised. Im sure a qs and project manager would prevented all the problems and a years delay on reaching practical completion.

I understand that the JCT contract and insurance for the project meant all payments had to go through the builder. That didnt help the client at all. They would have been far better dealing directly with me as a separate contract. My experience is that it works best when the client deals direcgly with the joiner

 

[AJB Temple]

I am inclined to agree Robin. On commercial developments, invariably leveraged, QS needs to sign off work on drawdowns. I used to employ a full time surveyor as PM. On domestic stuff, for myself, I have generally tended to employ most significant trades directly as I dislike dealing with principal contractors and subs. The danger is that when you pay them, and they are juggling liabilities, the money you have paid does not get used on your job for your subcontractors or materials.

When I first started developing, I once put up a large timber framed oak barn (4 bays) using a second hand frame I had bought. This was at my house at the time. All groundworks were in and I engaged a builder to erect and clad the frame, plus roofing. I bought all the second hand clay peg tiles myself as the builder's quote was three times what it should have been ;-) When we got the final bill the builder included VAT. I always check people's accounts filings, VAT registrations, annual return etc (this is very easy to do with on-line services these days - less so back then) and lo and behold the builder was not VAT registered. His work was actually very good, but his business ethics left a good deal to be desired.

In this case, with my friend's house, they have fiddled about with the spec continually - mainly trying to make savings. My friend also focuses on the wrong things in my view, so conflict has gradually grown between him and the builder over trivial matters such as where ons its they are storing a load of your stone that they lifted from the back terrace. DIY managers tend to underestimate how messy a site can be and how fast it all comes together at the end. They have tried to live in the house through the build, and that was their first mistake....

 

[YorkshireMartin]

I'm not going to get into further discussion on someone elses thread but I feel the information presented about architects is misleading and doesn't help readers of this thread to make an informed choice.

Many architects I know are chartered project managers in addition to being chartered architects. Post bachelors degree, a large portion of an architects training is directed toward contract management, project management and legal matters. This includes ongoing compulsory CPD which is necessary to retain a RIBA charter. Like a doctor, an architect can elect to undertake certain courses progress to being a specialist in one or more areas.

The role of an architect has never been just to draw pictures, basically, you only get to use the crayons full time if you're famous in the profession.

That said, a QS, SE and other professionals are involved where appropriate to the project in hand. The architect should be an advocate for the client alongside any other designated project role. People often forget that. If an RIBA chartered architect doesn't perform their role ethically and with due diligence and impartiality, there is clear recourse for the client, via the RIBA.

Who exactly does what is all down to the procurement method. No one professional can fully replace another and there are good and bad people in every profession.

In any case, I think we can all agree that self managing a 450k project with no experience is going to prove a challenge to most people.

 

[blackrodd]

I'm not going to get into further discussion on someone elses thread but I feel the information presented about architects is misleading and doesn't help readers of this thread to make an informed choice.

Many architects I know are chartered project managers in addition to being chartered architects. Post bachelors degree, a large portion of an architects training is directed toward contract management, project management and legal matters. This includes ongoing compulsory CPD which is necessary to retain a RIBA charter. Like a doctor, an architect can elect to undertake certain courses progress to being a specialist in one or more areas.

The role of an architect has never been just to draw pictures, basically, you only get to use the crayons full time if you're famous in the profession.

That said, a QS, SE and other professionals are involved where appropriate to the project in hand. The architect should be an advocate for the client alongside any other designated project role. People often forget that. If an RIBA chartered architect doesn't perform their role ethically and with due diligence and impartiality, there is clear recourse for the client, via the RIBA.

Who exactly does what is all down to the procurement method. No one professional can fully replace another and there are good and bad people in every profession.

In any case, I think we can all agree that self managing a 450k project with no experience is going to prove a challenge to most people.

I'm Afraid there are good architects and QS, etc and there are bad ones, much the same as in any other so called profession, I've been badly let down by incompetent solicitor's, surveyor,etc, and paid for their mistakes.
This is normally easy to dertermine, in the first instance, as the better will tend always be very busy and not always have room for another client.
Dialogue is all important in this project management, And as the biggest job I managed is a £240.000 house build,
not quite in the same league, but the principle would be similar, good but not over familiar relations, materials on, and
at the right time, and keeping a good flow of work and constantly looking for problems, and then overcoming them with the right answers, and any due payments on time!
Another hurdle is getting people to understand The cheapest is not the best in most cases!
Regards Rodders