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As said though you can’t force someone to take that advice even it’s the correct advice, hopefully they will ( stig and v ) but it’s never easy . It’s hard for some people to admit/ accept they have a problem, maybe they fear being labelled, or think others will think less of them or would be unwilling to take the advise of a professional. tbh i think I’ve said this before but I’m waiting to read the post that says ( appointment booked with gp and we are both going ) but it’s a decision for the both of them . @Stigmorgan does v know you have started this thread ??? If yes what’s her take on it ??? @Derek Cohen (Perth Oz) i fully agree with your advice it’s the correct action but surely as a professional you must of had patients/ clients that had their problems for weeks, months or years before seeking professional help. And of those I imagine a few ignored your advice and went their own way . I respect your views but I know people that would scoff and ignore your advice as a pro but would happily take the advice of their gardener or neighbour or local shop keeper. because of that small word ( trust ) exactly like this thread stig reached out to this forum as he felt comfortable sharing his feelings and concerns and felt reassured that he would get quality advice and support and as it’s a subject close to me I’m happy to share my knowledge and experience of these issues. So just to confirm you are 100% regarding your advice for professional help to address the route cause (s) of v, issues but to put it in simple terms - you can lead a horse to water but you can’t force it to drink..
 
She does not know I started this thread, if I told her it would likely cause an argument, she is very private and doesn't believe in talking to anyone she doesn't know online, she accepts that I talk wood with you guys but not approve of this thread.
It's not about accepting people advice/recommendation, V knows she needs help and as said I can't force it or get that help for her against her will, in the meantime I will continue to encourage her as best as I can and hope we get enough done to satisfy the academy.
I also discovered today that as my landlord they are required to ensure the house has a minimum energy rating of E but the certificate for the house states it has a rating of G so I will be pushing them to either sort it or they can start subsidising my ridiculous winter gas bill and summer electric bill because this place is an ice box in winter and a sauna in summer.
 
She does not know I started this thread, if I told her it would likely cause an argument, she is very private and doesn't believe in talking to anyone she doesn't know online, she accepts that I talk wood with you guys but not approve of this thread.
It's not about accepting people advice/recommendation, V knows she needs help and as said I can't force it or get that help for her against her will, in the meantime I will continue to encourage her as best as I can and hope we get enough done to satisfy the academy.
I also discovered today that as my landlord they are required to ensure the house has a minimum energy rating of E but the certificate for the house states it has a rating of G so I will be pushing them to either sort it or they can start subsidising my ridiculous winter gas bill and summer electric bill because this place is an ice box in winter and a sauna in summer.
I’m not at all surprised she’s not aware of this thread that’s why I asked the question. Knowing she needs help is a massive hurdle to get over , the next will be actually taking steps to get that help . What you won’t know is whether it will be your advice or one of her friends or another family member but hopefully it will happen sooner rather than later . So keep the support up and keep up the good work you have accomplished so far ..👍👍
 
Good evening @Stigmorgan its been a few weeks since I last posted on this thread .how are things going ? Has the inspection been completed yet? I hope you are both coping and moving forward..take care ..
Hey B, inspection is on the 30th so only 8 days left, Veda has made quite a bit of progress (less than I would like but I'll go with it) the 2 spare rooms are now accessible enough to get to the plug sockets, the bedroom on the other hand is an entirely different story, hopefully we will get it better than it is, I did set up a tent a few weeks ago outsidebthe back door, yesterday while she was out dogwalking I moved it into the corner of the garden, partly so I could cut the grass that was now 12 inches tall (I'm really bad at keeping it short) and partly so it was on better ground, where it was had low spots and the tarp I put down kept collecting rainwater, I then used up some old pallets to make a quick and dirty bench thing so some stuff can be up off the floor, we will cram as much as possible into it for the inspection.
Work on the other hand took a downward curve, on Wednesday 10th as I was finishing my shift at 12 the headteacher caught me and said she needed to have a chat with me when I return to work at 17:30 about something I had said on the 4th, bear in mind the 4th was polling day and the school was shut as our hall was a polling station so my afternoon was ruined trying to work out what I was supposed to have said, I had also locked every internal door i could to secure the site from a GDPR standpoint, I only spoke to 2 people that day outside of the people running the station, 1st was someone who pulled I to the rear carpark, as he got out of his car I said that polling and parking was at the front of school, he abruptly answered that he was here to meet the estates manager so he could take measurements in the hall, all I said to him was that our hall is a polling station so he wouldn't be going there at all but he was welcome to wait for the estates manager (who is also my line manager) I went back to work resealing a set of toilets that had come loose due to broken hold down screws, halfway through with silicone on my hands my phone starts ringing, I should have ignored it but I didn't, it was the managers admin assistant asking to be let into the office, at this point I was very frustrated at people coming in when EVERYONE was told not to come to work, my words were "for F sake nobody is supposed to be in" I hung up and went over, opened the office door and without a word went back to work for the rest of the day ( that day started at 05:30 and finished at 22:30)
Sooo back to the 10th, I went back to work expecting a quick informal chat, I knocked on the HT door and she asked me to take a seat while she goes to get our operations managers who would be sitting in to take notes, at this point I realised this is not an informal chat and seeing as the operations manager is also the woman responsible for my landlord reispection and threat of eviction I decided to start my phone recording so that I could reference the conversation to anything that happens after, turns out the contractor on the 4th had complained that I was rude and the admin assistant had complained I swore at her, also brought up in this "chat" was several other complaints from months ago by contractors that I am grumpy, rude and unprofessional.
I acknowledged that swearing in any way is inappropriate but I didn't swear at her I just swore in a sentence out of frustration
I have never been rude or unprofessional to anyone that has come here, grumpy at times possibly butnyou can't enforce someone to be all smiles and rainbows, that's not my natural disposition.

The whole interview took about 10 minutes and the next day my Headteacher came and told me that whilst my language was inappropriate, on this occasion she understands my frustration so won't put it to a disciplinary, if however any other complaints arise it will ge to formal proceedings. I then took the opportunity to point out to her unofficially that I was surprised the assistant made the complaint seeing as the morning before the day in question she had told me to "F off don't start on me today" in the staffroom in front of the estates manager because I had said she couldn't just help herself to some storage boxes I have in the staffroom waiting for new playground toys to be stored in and nothing at all was said or done about it.

Sorry that's so longwinded. I have now started working to rule when it comes to my hours and have been ignoring phone calls from all numbers that are work related which has caused some small issues when the contractor doing the groundwork for the newbuild needed me for something that nobody else had the knowledge to deal with, the surveyor sent in an electrician in the afternoon, nobody knew what they needed to know so they had to come back the next day while I was on duty. I have also removed the use of every single tool of mine from site which means unless it can be carried out or fixed with a cordless drill that has no bits or driver heads it doesn't get done because the only tools they own are a cordless drill, a petrol strimmer and a petrol leaf blower.
 
Hey B, inspection is on the 30th so only 8 days left, Veda has made quite a bit of progress (less than I would like but I'll go with it) the 2 spare rooms are now accessible enough to get to the plug sockets, the bedroom on the other hand is an entirely different story, hopefully we will get it better than it is, I did set up a tent a few weeks ago outsidebthe back door, yesterday while she was out dogwalking I moved it into the corner of the garden, partly so I could cut the grass that was now 12 inches tall (I'm really bad at keeping it short) and partly so it was on better ground, where it was had low spots and the tarp I put down kept collecting rainwater, I then used up some old pallets to make a quick and dirty bench thing so some stuff can be up off the floor, we will cram as much as possible into it for the inspection.
Work on the other hand took a downward curve, on Wednesday 10th as I was finishing my shift at 12 the headteacher caught me and said she needed to have a chat with me when I return to work at 17:30 about something I had said on the 4th, bear in mind the 4th was polling day and the school was shut as our hall was a polling station so my afternoon was ruined trying to work out what I was supposed to have said, I had also locked every internal door i could to secure the site from a GDPR standpoint, I only spoke to 2 people that day outside of the people running the station, 1st was someone who pulled I to the rear carpark, as he got out of his car I said that polling and parking was at the front of school, he abruptly answered that he was here to meet the estates manager so he could take measurements in the hall, all I said to him was that our hall is a polling station so he wouldn't be going there at all but he was welcome to wait for the estates manager (who is also my line manager) I went back to work resealing a set of toilets that had come loose due to broken hold down screws, halfway through with silicone on my hands my phone starts ringing, I should have ignored it but I didn't, it was the managers admin assistant asking to be let into the office, at this point I was very frustrated at people coming in when EVERYONE was told not to come to work, my words were "for F sake nobody is supposed to be in" I hung up and went over, opened the office door and without a word went back to work for the rest of the day ( that day started at 05:30 and finished at 22:30)
Sooo back to the 10th, I went back to work expecting a quick informal chat, I knocked on the HT door and she asked me to take a seat while she goes to get our operations managers who would be sitting in to take notes, at this point I realised this is not an informal chat and seeing as the operations manager is also the woman responsible for my landlord reispection and threat of eviction I decided to start my phone recording so that I could reference the conversation to anything that happens after, turns out the contractor on the 4th had complained that I was rude and the admin assistant had complained I swore at her, also brought up in this "chat" was several other complaints from months ago by contractors that I am grumpy, rude and unprofessional.
I acknowledged that swearing in any way is inappropriate but I didn't swear at her I just swore in a sentence out of frustration
I have never been rude or unprofessional to anyone that has come here, grumpy at times possibly butnyou can't enforce someone to be all smiles and rainbows, that's not my natural disposition.

The whole interview took about 10 minutes and the next day my Headteacher came and told me that whilst my language was inappropriate, on this occasion she understands my frustration so won't put it to a disciplinary, if however any other complaints arise it will ge to formal proceedings. I then took the opportunity to point out to her unofficially that I was surprised the assistant made the complaint seeing as the morning before the day in question she had told me to "F off don't start on me today" in the staffroom in front of the estates manager because I had said she couldn't just help herself to some storage boxes I have in the staffroom waiting for new playground toys to be stored in and nothing at all was said or done about it.

Sorry that's so longwinded. I have now started working to rule when it comes to my hours and have been ignoring phone calls from all numbers that are work related which has caused some small issues when the contractor doing the groundwork for the newbuild needed me for something that nobody else had the knowledge to deal with, the surveyor sent in an electrician in the afternoon, nobody knew what they needed to know so they had to come back the next day while I was on duty. I have also removed the use of every single tool of mine from site which means unless it can be carried out or fixed with a cordless drill that has no bits or driver heads it doesn't get done because the only tools they own are a cordless drill, a petrol strimmer and a petrol leaf blower.
Well it’s good to hear the de cluttering is still going well Even if it’s not as much as you’d like -progress is progress. As for work I agree swearing is not acceptable but there is a huge difference in swearing out loud and swearing at a colleague. Working to rule is a sign that you have little or no confidence in your employer or management team . You should not be using your own tools at work unless this is part of your terms and conditions as should you injure yourself your employer would simply say that you were not authorised to use your own personal tools at work ( any injury , would be basically your own fault and your employer would not be liable for any time of work . So with your inspection not far away and the school summer holidays about to start I’d concentrate on the inspection and as we used to say in b gas - keep ya nose clean and watch your back ..oh and as for being grumpy- not everyone can be a saint 100% of the time - we all have our off days .. 😤😤😤
 
Hey B, inspection is on the 30th so only 8 days left, Veda has made quite a bit of progress (less than I would like but I'll go with it) the 2 spare rooms are now accessible enough to get to the plug sockets, the bedroom on the other hand is an entirely different story, hopefully we will get it better than it is, I did set up a tent a few weeks ago outsidebthe back door, yesterday while she was out dogwalking I moved it into the corner of the garden, partly so I could cut the grass that was now 12 inches tall (I'm really bad at keeping it short) and partly so it was on better ground, where it was had low spots and the tarp I put down kept collecting rainwater, I then used up some old pallets to make a quick and dirty bench thing so some stuff can be up off the floor, we will cram as much as possible into it for the inspection.
Work on the other hand took a downward curve, on Wednesday 10th as I was finishing my shift at 12 the headteacher caught me and said she needed to have a chat with me when I return to work at 17:30 about something I had said on the 4th, bear in mind the 4th was polling day and the school was shut as our hall was a polling station so my afternoon was ruined trying to work out what I was supposed to have said, I had also locked every internal door i could to secure the site from a GDPR standpoint, I only spoke to 2 people that day outside of the people running the station, 1st was someone who pulled I to the rear carpark, as he got out of his car I said that polling and parking was at the front of school, he abruptly answered that he was here to meet the estates manager so he could take measurements in the hall, all I said to him was that our hall is a polling station so he wouldn't be going there at all but he was welcome to wait for the estates manager (who is also my line manager) I went back to work resealing a set of toilets that had come loose due to broken hold down screws, halfway through with silicone on my hands my phone starts ringing, I should have ignored it but I didn't, it was the managers admin assistant asking to be let into the office, at this point I was very frustrated at people coming in when EVERYONE was told not to come to work, my words were "for F sake nobody is supposed to be in" I hung up and went over, opened the office door and without a word went back to work for the rest of the day ( that day started at 05:30 and finished at 22:30)
Sooo back to the 10th, I went back to work expecting a quick informal chat, I knocked on the HT door and she asked me to take a seat while she goes to get our operations managers who would be sitting in to take notes, at this point I realised this is not an informal chat and seeing as the operations manager is also the woman responsible for my landlord reispection and threat of eviction I decided to start my phone recording so that I could reference the conversation to anything that happens after, turns out the contractor on the 4th had complained that I was rude and the admin assistant had complained I swore at her, also brought up in this "chat" was several other complaints from months ago by contractors that I am grumpy, rude and unprofessional.
I acknowledged that swearing in any way is inappropriate but I didn't swear at her I just swore in a sentence out of frustration
I have never been rude or unprofessional to anyone that has come here, grumpy at times possibly butnyou can't enforce someone to be all smiles and rainbows, that's not my natural disposition.

The whole interview took about 10 minutes and the next day my Headteacher came and told me that whilst my language was inappropriate, on this occasion she understands my frustration so won't put it to a disciplinary, if however any other complaints arise it will ge to formal proceedings. I then took the opportunity to point out to her unofficially that I was surprised the assistant made the complaint seeing as the morning before the day in question she had told me to "F off don't start on me today" in the staffroom in front of the estates manager because I had said she couldn't just help herself to some storage boxes I have in the staffroom waiting for new playground toys to be stored in and nothing at all was said or done about it.

Sorry that's so longwinded. I have now started working to rule when it comes to my hours and have been ignoring phone calls from all numbers that are work related which has caused some small issues when the contractor doing the groundwork for the newbuild needed me for something that nobody else had the knowledge to deal with, the surveyor sent in an electrician in the afternoon, nobody knew what they needed to know so they had to come back the next day while I was on duty. I have also removed the use of every single tool of mine from site which means unless it can be carried out or fixed with a cordless drill that has no bits or driver heads it doesn't get done because the only tools they own are a cordless drill, a petrol strimmer and a petrol leaf blower.
Hi @Stigmorgan
Glad you recorded the conversation. I did the same years ago when I was a resident at a retirement village and was complaining about serious breaches of health and safety. I would suggest you also download the conversation onto your computer as back up. I transcribed the conversations and forwarded the report to my Member of Parliament. It's amazing how quick things happen. The couldn't ignore the MP, and things changed.
All the best with the issues you are dealing with
Fred
 
By tools I mean handtools, I don't use power tools for work, unfortunately a lot of caretakers do use their own, power and hand tools, resulting in an expectation, up to now I've not minded using my own spanners, screwdrivers etc if it meant getting something fixed there and then but I'm over that now, they can either buy a tool kit for me to use or they can get someone else to do it.

I don't know how "legal" the recording is as they didn't know I had the camera recording, it's more for me in case they try saying something different later as my ability to recall conversations isn't great.
 
By tools I mean handtools, I don't use power tools for work, unfortunately a lot of caretakers do use their own, power and hand tools, resulting in an expectation, up to now I've not minded using my own spanners, screwdrivers etc if it meant getting something fixed there and then but I'm over that now, they can either buy a tool kit for me to use or they can get someone else to do it.

I don't know how "legal" the recording is as they didn't know I had the camera recording, it's more for me in case they try saying something different later as my ability to recall conversations isn't great.
Tbh I did assume power tools but it’s the same with any tools - in fact anything you use to do your job that is not supplied by your employer could render you liable if something went wrong .as for the recording I’m not 100% but I think you have to inform those at the meeting that you intend to record the meeting. Think of the message you get every time you phone a company-this call will be recorded for training and monitoring purposes..sounds like they have had it all there wsy for two long ..
 
You do not need to tell those attending a meeting that you are recording them - employment tribunal can admit covert recordings as evidence.

As an explanation - that you were doing so to ensure you could remember precisely what was said at a potentially stressful time would be entirely reasonable, and would only be used if your employers recollection of what was said was different to that recorded.
 
By tools I mean handtools, I don't use power tools for work, unfortunately a lot of caretakers do use their own, power and hand tools, resulting in an expectation, up to now I've not minded using my own spanners, screwdrivers etc if it meant getting something fixed there and then but I'm over that now, they can either buy a tool kit for me to use or they can get someone else to do it.

I don't know how "legal" the recording is as they didn't know I had the camera recording, it's more for me in case they try saying something different later as my ability to recall conversations isn't great.
Is it legal to record secretly? My research then in my circumstances was that it was not legal. In the event of an accident because the company was not complying with the law of the land my concern was that the management would not 'tell the truth '. They made clear admissions on recordings that things were dangerous.

In your circumstances, maybe their recollections in any future disciplinary proceedings could be different to the actual facts, that you can prove because the rightly recorded the conversation.

I would continue to do so in any further dealings with management.
All the best
Fred
 
I recall that if invited to a disciplinary, you have the right to be accompanied. This is very useful for recall and perspective.

Is there any possibility that they using workplace stresses is a deliberate tactic to delay/derail your home endeavours?

Guessing focus is the key - good luck.
 
When I was in business I had to send and ensure the recipient received two or was it three warning letters prior to a accompanied disciplinary interview, both sides could tape the meeting for later recall, I would transcribe the interview for both parties, this was to avoid the "Constructive Dismissal" time bomb, I think the rules may have changed since then 2006/7.
 
The disciplinary and grievance procedures will be very clearly specified, and you should assume that HR will know them backwards. If you don't already have a copy, I suggest getting one asap. It will help you to understand where they are coming from and be alert to any areas where they hope you are not prepared.

This is an area where a union rep can really help.

HR are human beings too, so quite capable of making mistakes....
 
Stig

If they have pre-arranged a meeting and invited others without your knowledge then you can ask for someone (your union rep) to be in attendance. They can't arrange for two or three people to attend a meeting and just expect you to casually pop in unawares.

Bearing in mind how this is all wrapped up with your house - I would have a 3rd party attend and/or be very up front about recording it.

HTH - Good luck with the inspection
 
Your employer certainly seems to be holding all the cards and to some extent holding your home as a hostage. They think and hope you won’t leave your post as you will be homeless so they can make it uncomfortable for you and v by calling these so called informal meetings. Some excellent advice above . Might be time to start holding a few cards of your own. Do you know your rights if you was to leave your position in regards to vacating your home. If you don’t it’s time to find out . In normal housing evictions it can take months to go to court and follow the process, they would only be able to replace you with someone else who is prepared to do your job but without the house as you would pretty much become sitting tenants ( I think ) so even if the worst case scenario came into play you could potentially make it very difficult for them to replace you. Hope it doesn’t but you need to be prepared.. some professional advice may help you ..sincerely hope it all works out for both of you..🙏🙏
 
I get a month to vacate, same as the notice period I would be required to work, I do have 1 thing on my side, with everything that's happened over the last 6 months I could justify being signed off with stress/burnout, they can't evict me while signed off sick.
 
Someone above correctly said that you have the right to be accompanied at a disciplinary hearing, by a union representative or a work colleague (so you can't bring an 'outsider' except in very special circumstances). You should also be given written notice of such a meeting stating what the reason is sufficiently in advance, most take that to be about 3-5 days but there is no specific period required. It's what is reasonable in the circumstances.

Those rights do not extend to investigations, just to hearings. An employer can meet with you unaccompanied and without notice in order to establish the facts. (Bigger employers will often have someone who is not your manager do an investigation) The manager considers the result of the investigation and any other evidence then sends a letter inviting the employee to a disciplinary meeting.

Even if the matter is clear cut ("and so I hit him...") and the timescales are compressed you still have to offer right to be accompanied at any meeting where there is or may be a disciplinary sanction.

Whoever is meeting with you should start by telling you the purpose of the meeting. If not, it's is reasonable to ask. If they say it's a disciplinary hearing ask to be accompanied, ask what you are accused of and ask for time to prepare your response. If they say it's an investigation then all you can do is politely answer their questions.

I always had someone else present even for an investigation meeting, often just a note taker so there is someone else in the room. . It protects the manager from accusations of bullying or worse as much as it protects the employee. I always acted as if I were being recorded, even if I wasn't. Safer that way.

Covert recording happens, I don't know the legal position but it strikes me that it means that all trust has broken down. That isn't healthy, and tells me that you need to think carefully about moving on. If you are working every day in an environment where you don't trust your manager/employer then it wears you down. Something has to change.
 
I get a month to vacate, same as the notice period I would be required to work, I do have 1 thing on my side, with everything that's happened over the last 6 months I could justify being signed off with stress/burnout, they can't evict me while signed off sick.
I would strongly consider this if you feel you’re being pushed out as your ace card .also you have a month to find somewhere else to live whilst working your month of notice . This leaves you evenings and weekends where most letting agencies and your local council are closed . Do you have a citizen advice near you . Think you have to make an appointment online or take a chance and queue for ages with no guarantee of an appointment.. also your local council should also be able to help and advise you ..
 
I would strongly consider this if you feel you’re being pushed out as your ace card .also you have a month to find somewhere else to live whilst working your month of notice . This leaves you evenings and weekends where most letting agencies and your local council are closed . Do you have a citizen advice near you . Think you have to make an appointment online or take a chance and queue for ages with no guarantee of an appointment.. also your local council should also be able to help and advise you ..
Have been trying to contact CA but it's harder than contacting the GP, my local centre requires an appointment to get in so can't just turn up.

I've already decided that I'm not staying here, however it's not that simple, we need a lot of money to make that happen plus the need for a job to walk into straight away, we need thousands in order to have somewhere to move into, cover the actual cost of the move and have a safety net, the council have said we would at best be put in temp accommodation and would not be able to have our dogs with us, I'm not giving the dogs up for anything.
 

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