Electric vehicles

[Dabop]

View attachment 189019So the intention is not that you just rock up on someones driveway and plug in but share your charger with a neighbor, I assume that for a lot of households it would be possible to position the charger so that both park on their own drive and you just need to agree who charges when and share the installation cost. Also great if you have friends visit who want to charge, no embarrassing "can I pay for the electricity or have a free fill up".

I imagine if you found yourself in trouble many people would allow a stranger to charge anyway if the charger was not in use, I haven't checked the site to see if payment is upfront yet which would obviously matter in that situation.

Thanks for posting this @Dabop really interesting.

It is both- you can sign up- and look for an available charger (the orange is free chargers, the green is chargers in use)- there is a range of various options, from neighbours sharing a charger being one, to those looking for a 'topup charger' for a one time use, to those looking for a 'nearby charger they can leave the car while at work' on a daily basis...

It's designed to be flexible... (the charger owners can specify if they want to be present at all charging, or at the first charging only, or never meet them at all- whatever you want just put it in the options, and the app matches your current requirements as a 'I wanna charge' user with those chargers that meet your needs)

Billing isn't handled by the chargers owner- they just spec what they want, the app matches users with owners according to their listed requirements for each, and the app handles the billing from the user to the chargers owner (basically direct debit for new users)

 

[Ozi]

Most tower blocks here have their own onsite (allocated) parking spaces underneath- so that isn't an issue here... (with many already having EV overnight 'slow chargers' fitted- its a good 'selling point' in the cities where EV's here are very popular)- along with 'in the burbs'- and with rural buyers- at this point the only market that hasn't taken to them 'bigtime' is in the outback lol

Well.... sorta...
View attachment 189021
https://www.plugshare.com/
Just for fun- go to Australia on there, and start zooming in, and in, and in- and more and more chargers just keep appearing on the map...
(remembering that there's only under 28 million Aussies in total, in a land mass thats the size of the 'lower 48' in the US, and that the UK is dwarfed by...- yet we can still manage a decent charging network here...)
View attachment 189022And in 2024, the 'new car' market was basically half and half for EV's and ICErs in the sedan/hatchback/stationwagon sized market (and the makers of the popular utes like the Hilux and the Ranger might start looking worried, with multiple companies releasing both hybrids and full EV utes here starting from later this year to 2026, and nearly half a dozen different utes coming onto the market...)

View attachment 189023
The BYD hybrid, coming the end of this year, with their full electric model next year seen driving around Melbourne at the end of last year (in LHD form) during test driving here...
View attachment 189024
(Why do they do that stupid 'camo' cover stuff??? - if they had just started driving it around as a 'white ute' nobody would have even noticed it- it is like the other millions of basically identical white utes out there already.... instead everyone is looking at the 'camo ute')

I'm going to assume that works well in Oz, you have a lot more space per person even in your cities, a lot of our city housing doesn't have dedicated parking and I don't think this really helps much in those situations. It's still a great idea for where it does work

 

[Dabop]

In theory you are right but real life isn’t that straightforward.

I know your opening comment is said tongue in cheek and for some who don’t have their own charger using one away from home may not be an issue, but for anyone with a busy life it’s more likely to be a hassle you could do without.

So a tiny subsection (too busy) of a tiny subsection (can't have a charger at home) should mean nobody should get an EV...

Thats assuming that the rollout of 'street slow chargers' doesn't continue until basically every street in those areas with no offstreet parking hasn't multiple chargepoints (streetlamp, bollard chargers) fitted (a bollard charger is about $400Au, with fitting a simple and quite quick job (trench the concrete with a slicer, drop in an armoured cable and patch with quick drying cement, half a day later its set and nobody even knows why they 'stuck all those bollards down the side of the street...' (except the EV owners lol)

That's after all the streetlights are converted- pull the old mercury vapour bulbs, fit an LED head and you can safely run two 'overnight slow chargers' at each streetlight on the existing wiring!!! (those old streetlights were power hungry...)

(thats an early one- the new units have all the 'smarts' inside the standard plug, no 'box' on the lead)

 

[Dabop]

I'm going to assume that works well in Oz, you have a lot more space per person even in your cities, a lot of our city housing doesn't have dedicated parking and I don't think this really helps much in those situations. It's still a great idea for where it does work

LOL- you never lived in the inner city in Sydney here- its got the older terrace housing with no onsite parking at all, and many of the streets are that narrow, they are only 'one way' if cars are parked on both sides...
We got such places too...

I used to live in that suburb... thats three terrace houses side by side- there's entire streets of them like that...

 

[Ozi]

LOL- you never lived in the inner city in Sydney here- its got the older terrace housing with no onsite parking at all, and many of the streets are that narrow, they are only 'one way' if cars are parked on both sides...
We got such places too...

Guilty as charged.

 

[woodieallen]

I can park 10 cars on my drive and can charge 2 at the same time so the stats would be even more favourable if this was counted.

Well, I'm alright, Jack ! As you've clearly got a lot of money and take everything you read at face value, I have the fabulous Ponzi scheme you might like to invest in

 

[Blackswanwood]

So a tiny subsection (too busy) of a tiny subsection (can't have a charger at home) should mean nobody should get an EV...

Thats assuming that the rollout of 'street slow chargers' doesn't continue until basically every street in those areas with no offstreet parking hasn't multiple chargepoints (streetlamp, bollard chargers) fitted (a bollard charger is about $400Au, with fitting a simple and quite quick job (trench the concrete with a slicer, drop in an armoured cable and patch with quick drying cement, half a day later its set and nobody even knows why they 'stuck all those bollards down the side of the street...' (except the EV owners lol)
View attachment 189026
That's after all the streetlights are converted- pull the old mercury vapour bulbs, fit an LED head and you can safely run two 'overnight slow chargers' at each streetlight on the existing wiring!!! (those old streetlights were power hungry...)
View attachment 189027
(thats an early one- the new units have all the 'smarts' inside the standard plug, no 'box' on the lead)

Yes, we’ve got those in some places in the UK and they are great for some people in some places.

It’s not however a tiny subsection at all and I’ve not said nobody should get at EV. I’ve consistently made the point that EV’s are great for many people (I’ve got one - it works for me) but they are not currently better than an ICE car for a still significant number of people. That’s why we’re transitioning over a number of years.

 

[woodieallen]

It is both- you can sign up- and look for an available charger (the orange is free chargers, the green is chargers in use)- there is a range of various options, from neighbours sharing a charger being one, to those looking for a 'topup charger' for a one time use, to those looking for a 'nearby charger they can leave the car while at work' on a daily basis...

It's designed to be flexible... (the charger owners can specify if they want to be present at all charging, or at the first charging only, or never meet them at all- whatever you want just put it in the options, and the app matches your current requirements as a 'I wanna charge' user with those chargers that meet your needs)

Billing isn't handled by the chargers owner- they just spec what they want, the app matches users with owners according to their listed requirements for each, and the app handles the billing from the user to the chargers owner (basically direct debit for new users)

That does sound pretty cool.

 

[woodieallen]

Re enforceable: Based on the Tesla system (and I think dedicated chargers at Mercedes dealers are similar) the system already: identifies in real time how many chargers are free and conditions the battery ready to optimise charge; identifies the car on arrival; notifies the app in real time on car and phone how charge is progressing and warns when close to set charge limits; imposes a monetary penalty for overstaying (which I think is fair and necessary) and locks out the supercharger account for those who don't pay the "fine" (you have an account with card details on file, if you fail to maintain that they can lock out the chargers for your car). I am sure that it is not beyond the tech that it can allocate a charger bay to a vehicle that pre-books en route so that only that vehicle can charge as it will know how far away the vehicle is. The cars have inbuilt tracking and factory link anyway. Not difficult to enforce I suspect if they wanted to. Has not been necessary so far.

On the one hand, I am impressed with all that 'tech'. But on the other hand, it frightens the hell out of me knowing that 'potentially' some random computer glitch or 'fat fingers' will lock me out of my car or worse still decide to switch me off while hammering down the overtaking lane on a motorway. Especially if the car was made in China !

 

[selectortone]

On the one hand, I am impressed with all that 'tech'. But on the other hand, it frightens the hell out of me knowing that 'potentially' some random computer glitch or 'fat fingers' will lock me out of my car or worse still decide to switch me off while hammering down the overtaking lane on a motorway. Especially if the car was made in China !

People driving horse-drawn carriages probably felt the same when they saw the first automobiles. That's progress.

My daughter loves her company EV and looks on ICE cars as old fashioned. She navigates the world using her phone, be it available chargers, online banking, the heating in her flat, deliveroo, airbnb, online shopping and all the rest. She never has any cash on her.

I agree with you, I do have concerns about what would happen if the internet stopped working for any length of time. Let's hope that, like her, Putin has an Amazon addiction too.

 

[Dabop]

Yes, we’ve got those in some places in the UK and they are great for some people in some places.

It’s not however a tiny subsection at all and I’ve not said nobody should get at EV. I’ve consistently made the point that EV’s are great for many people (I’ve got one - it works for me) but they are not currently better than an ICE car for a still significant number of people. That’s why we’re transitioning over a number of years.

Most EV users in such places drive fairly short distances- so much so that a single 1/2- 3/4 hour charge would cover their entire weekly needs (do it while shopping,which is why many supermarkets now have multiple fast chargers at them) so they really don't need access to a home charger...

And the number of people that 'absolutely can't charge an EV' someway, somehow, is so small its IS negligible... and the gains of owning one mean that the number of people that 'CAN'T' use an EV at all is TINY....

Hell, I' buying one later this year myself- and I don't even have the grid on here at all!!! (offgrid solar) and it still works out cheaper and better for me lol

 

[paulrbarnard]

On the one hand, I am impressed with all that 'tech'. But on the other hand, it frightens the hell out of me knowing that 'potentially' some random computer glitch or 'fat fingers' will lock me out of my car or worse still decide to switch me off while hammering down the overtaking lane on a motorway. Especially if the car was made in China !

Don’t worry you still get all those benefits with a new ICE vehicle.

 

[johnb80]

Well, I'm alright, Jack ! As you've clearly got a lot of money and take everything you read at face value, I have the fabulous Ponzi scheme you might like to invest in

Not at all and I dont have a lot of money, I'm just careful of how I spend my money etc. Investing in a scheme that you had haha, yeah, right, the logic and attitude that you portray I couldn't think of anything less likely.

 

[ShavedSpoke]

Possibly. I drive a skoda superb estate because it's got a huge load space. It's often full of stuff; tools, timber, building gear, furniture, etc. I often commute between north Lincolnshire and Newcastle with a full boot. I don't think there's an EV on the market that could compete.

Kia EV9?

As an addendum to my previous post at the top of this page, the thing that held me back from getting a second EV as our 'big' car was the fact that we have 2 teenage boys (I'm 6'3 and they're catching up fast), and we go on family camping holidays every year. My outgoing car is a Q5, and we also had to take a 540l roof box to get all the gear in. It was also short on legroom in the back as the boys have grown. The EV9 has pretty much the same footprint as a Q7, and it's absolutely cavernous inside (over 820l boot with the 3rd row folded down). The back row is also usable by actual humans if needed. The max range version has a real world range over 300 miles so you could get from Lincoln to Newcastle and back with only a 10 minute top-up charge.

If that's too expensive (I got mine nearly new which lopped more than 10k off the price), there's also the new Peugeot E-5008 long range. With the 3rd row down it has a 750l boot which is bigger than a Superb estate. No real world range data yet as the long range battery version is still on order, but with WLTP of 415 miles, you'd probably get 350.

EDIT: I will add, one big downside with the EV9 is that while it's basically the same size as a Q7, and narrower than most other large SUVs like a RR Sport, X5, etc, it's slab-like design makes it look absolutely humungous. Most car design uses all the tricks in the book to soften corners, draw the eye with crease lines, etc, but the EV9 is a box and as such it doesn't hide its size at all. Just looking at the Kia you would think it's considerably bigger than a full fat Range Rover. I realise this is going to be a big issue for a lot of people.

 

[johnb80]

On the one hand, I am impressed with all that 'tech'.

It sure is impressive.

But on the other hand, it frightens the hell out of me knowing that 'potentially' some random computer glitch or 'fat fingers' will lock me out of my car or worse still decide to switch me off while hammering down the overtaking lane on a motorway.

Thank goodness for that, something for you to worry about and condemn.

Especially if the car was made in China !

Grounds for this illogical view? Almost everything we buy nowadays will have some Chinese components in there.

 

[Just4Fun]

What distance are your common journeys from home?

Short trips:
Nearest food shops: 60 to 90 km round trip, depending on which shop we go to.
Should be no problem for any EV.

Medium trips:
Larger shopping : 220 to 250 km round trip.
My office commute: 240 km round trip.

Longer trips:
My wife's office: 300 km each way.
I say each way for this one because there are charging points in the company car park at my wife's office, so it would be easy to charge while she is working. No extra stop would be needed to charge. So this is an exception to the "only charge at home" requirement.

I calculate the range required based on not fully charging or draining the batteries, to prolong their life. Then I guess the likely range reduction in winter when the temperature can often be -20C or -30C. Then look at what vehicles are available with the required range, and look at the prices. (Bear in mind that car prices are significantly higher than in the UK). My conclusion: not yet viable for us.

 

[johnb80]

People driving horse-drawn carriages probably felt the same when they saw the first automobiles. That's progress.

My daughter loves her company EV and looks on ICE cars as old fashioned. She navigates the world using her phone, be it available chargers, online banking, the heating in her flat, deliveroo, airbnb, online shopping and all the rest. She never has any cash on her.

This is the future more and more.

I agree with you, I do have concerns about what would happen if the internet stopped working for any length of time.

The internet was built to be nuke proof, the concept and spec was released to the world to develop by the military. It uses route discovery so if one particular segment isnt working for whatever reasons, alternative routes for data will be found and used. The local link is the most fragile part of the whole system, that is now much better with failover to 5G systems pretty much standard with many providers.

Let's hope that, like her, Putin has an Amazon addiction too.

Putin beggars belief, how he hasn't been bumped off yet is incredible.

 

[Dabop]

Oh sorry, I was following your example

View attachment 189016

Nah, cant be bothered, just the fact that the majority of homes in the UK have enough space for off street charging is good enough. I can park 10 cars on my drive and can charge 2 at the same time so the stats would be even more favourable if this was counted.

LOL- so its a tiny driveway then???
Mine I can do a standing start in the 8 tonne tilt tray, and exceed the states road speed limit in my driveway before needing to stop...

550m long...

Drive for half a kilometre and you get to my place....
(I'd hate to think how many cars I could fit on that- probably every car in the entire town lol- there's only 1500 of us here...)
To paraphase another famous Aussie- 'thats not a driveway, THIS is a driveway....'

 

[paulrbarnard]

Short trips:
Nearest food shops: 60 to 90 km round trip, depending on which shop we go to.
Should be no problem for any EV.

Medium trips:
Larger shopping : 220 to 250 km round trip.
My office commute: 240 km round trip.

Longer trips:
My wife's office: 300 km each way.
I say each way for this one because there are charging points in the company car park at my wife's office, so it would be easy to charge while she is working. No extra stop would be needed to charge. So this is an exception to the "only charge at home" requirement.

I calculate the range required based on not fully charging or draining the batteries, to prolong their life. Then I guess the likely range reduction in winter when the temperature can often be -20C or -30C. Then look at what vehicles are available with the required range, and look at the prices. (Bear in mind that car prices are significantly higher than in the UK). My conclusion: not yet viable for us.

Yet Finland sales of EV top ICE this year. I would expect the charging infrastructure to be accelerating rapidly.

 

[johnb80]

Short trips:
Nearest food shops: 60 to 90 km round trip, depending on which shop we go to.
Should be no problem for any EV.

Medium trips:
Larger shopping : 220 to 250 km round trip.
My office commute: 240 km round trip.

Most EV's would cover that.

Longer trips:
My wife's office: 300 km each way.
I say each way for this one because there are charging points in the company car park at my wife's office, so it would be easy to charge while she is working. No extra stop would be needed to charge. So this is an exception to the "only charge at home" requirement.

There are some EV's that would manage that.

I calculate the range required based on not fully charging or draining the batteries, to prolong their life.

This is good practice but often misunderstood. It will prolong the life of the batteries but they already have a life that is much better than people thuink. Ofetn quoted they need new batteries after 7 years which is complete rubbish. The Nissan Leaf is the only exception I know to battery life due to its poor thermal management, all the rest go on for 1000's of miles. The battery degredation that occurs when charging to 100% only happens for the time the car is at 100%. If you driven soon after reaching the 100% mark theres very little impact on longevity. Some cars like BMWi3 and some of the MG4's youre recommended to charge to 100% and it has no bearing on longevity at all.

Then I guess the likely range reduction in winter when the temperature can often be -20C or -30C.

That would have an impact for sure, thats cold.

Then look at what vehicles are available with the required range, and look at the prices. (Bear in mind that car prices are significantly higher than in the UK). My conclusion: not yet viable for us.

Aye, agreed, prices are falling as the uptake increased. The Chinese manufacturers are marketing very aggressively now.