Electric vehicles

[Ozi]

I would be interested to know how many of those without off street parking don't want to drive, how that would effect the percentages. When I lived in London the last thing I wanted was a car. If I was late for work I used to walk as it was quicker than the bus but not in a white shirt as it would be gray by the time I got there.

I don't personally like cities

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Slightly off tack -
I went out with a girl 50 Years ago whose family were Londoners. I was moaning one day about the number of awful caravan drivers on the roads, and made the comment that many people probably hired them for the two weeks of their holidays. Oh, said her father, it's worse that that, they hire the cars as well. There's no point in owning a car anywhere central London. So you have people towing a caravan they're not used to with a car that they're not used to, and they only drive 2 weeks out of 52.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

An extension of that - electric cars have phenomenal acceleration - I wonder how people who hire a car once in a blue moon deal with that?

 

[Chris152]

I have nothing to add to the EV/ ICE debate, except that EVs aren't on the agenda at our house, mainly because we (apparently) like petrol and smoke, but also because it seems the EVs are generally very ugly and pretty much all the same. And probably also because we've never driven an EV. But - we were at Pembrey track last weekend and among other cars on show was the new MG sports car. We agreed that it looks fantastic, and with specs like those, it's hard to imagine when you'd need more power.

https://www.mgcyberster.co.uk/

 

[Agent_zed]

EVs are generally very ugly and pretty much all the same

I'd mostly agree, but then I'd also say ICE cars are all pretty much the same and ugly. For example all of the VW Golfs of the last 25yrs pretty much look the same, and a lot of the VAG group cars like the Seat and Skoda look very similar also. From about 1997 I'd stuggle to tell the difference if one past me https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/04/04/08/69445659-11935481-image-a-11_1680594948796.jpg

Seems that grey euroboxes are what people want, or at least what they are offered.

https://d1ek71enupal89.cloudfront.n...SEAT/IBIZA/5DR/72SEATIbzFRSpo5drGryFR_800.jpg

https://usedcars.skoda.co.uk/picser.../UinQxhdtDrVxnNo/xxl_kfz971457_yp69euv_01.jpg

https://www.firstvehicleleasing.co..../VW-Golf-GT-Edition-first-vehicle-leasing.jpg

Very few cars in the past 20+ years have pushed any design forward. The French cars tend to be the only ones that have anything interesting going on.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Probably because computers have more and more influence. If information and requirements are fed into a computer the result will be the same no matter whose computer it is.

 

[Chris152]

Probably because computers have more and more influence. If information and requirements are fed into a computer the result will be the same no matter whose computer it is.

I'd not thought of that. I wonder what the balance is between human/ computer design. I look at the EV Mustang, look at the heritage of the car, and wonder how a human could be so mistaken.

 

[woodieallen]

Typical petrol or diesel user fills up periodically depending on mileage.

I don't understand what the point you are trying to make here is.

Those who are the optimum target for EV vehicles get home at the end of the day, plug it in (5 seconds) and walk away.

Assuming they have off-street parking

Car starts charging when cheap rate kicks in and conditions for start time the following day.

Assuming they are able to do that. My understanding is that this option is dependent on a lot of external factors.

...the vehicle always starts the day with full range, ICE does not.

Doesn't really matter if the ICE hasn't got a full tank. So easy to pop in for five minutes at the next petrol station. If you live a long way out in the sticks then you'll simply adjust accordingly and plan ahead.

EVs are not for everyone (hence government policy is daft). But for those who fit the criteria they are viable.

Agreed

 

[Dabop]

I'd mostly agree, but then I'd also say ICE cars are all pretty much the same and ugly. For example all of the VW Golfs of the last 25yrs pretty much look the same, and a lot of the VAG group cars like the Seat and Skoda look very similar also. From about 1997 I'd stuggle to tell the difference if one past me https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/04/04/08/69445659-11935481-image-a-11_1680594948796.jpg

Seems that grey euroboxes are what people want, or at least what they are offered.

https://d1ek71enupal89.cloudfront.n...SEAT/IBIZA/5DR/72SEATIbzFRSpo5drGryFR_800.jpg

https://usedcars.skoda.co.uk/picser.../UinQxhdtDrVxnNo/xxl_kfz971457_yp69euv_01.jpg

https://www.firstvehicleleasing.co..../VW-Golf-GT-Edition-first-vehicle-leasing.jpg

Very few cars in the past 20+ years have pushed any design forward. The French cars tend to be the only ones that have anything interesting going on.

They all tend to look similar- because aerodynamics means they all have a similar shape (ICE and EV) to maximise their efficiency, and 'extreme' vehicles tend to be unpopular (I like EV's, but OMFG- there's no way in hell I'd buy a 'Cybertruck'- talk about 'fugly'... looks like a stealth fighter crashed into a garbage skip from the rear lol)

 

[woodieallen]

....

However unlikely, I still have concerns about trying to find a working charger at 23.00 on a wet November night, then trudging across a windswept motorway service area in search of an overpriced tasteless cup of coffee whilst the grid does its thing.

.....

I couldn't have put it better myself !

 

[woodieallen]

There's a lot of dodgy info being put out about EV's and their charging needs...

Most countries won't need to expand their existing grid capacity at all, as EV's will mostly be charged at night (either with onstreet EV parking, or off street parking) when existing demand is low (the average driver will only need 10kwh to 15kwh of total electricity usage- which is about the same as a larger 'family' sized storage hot water service) and even the smaller 4-7kw chargers can easily 'fill the tank' in only a few hours or less (those with an existing 3 phase supply already installed, or those getting one put in can have up to a 22kw charger installed- which can literally refill the average motorists daily drive usage in under ten minutes!!! )
View attachment 188825View attachment 188826
There are already many 'street chargers' in many metro areas already (although those without an EV may not even recognise some of them unless there is an EV plugged in lol- look for those black covers on the lightpoles in some places- thats an EV charger...)
What most 'expect' an EV charger to look like on the left- what it can look like on the right...
View attachment 188830View attachment 188831
A very 'discreet' EV charger indeed- just a parking bollard right??? um...... plug in your car, and connect via your phone app...
View attachment 188832
Most EVs have a range in excess of 400km, and can do a 20% to 80% 'refill' in half an hour or less (on long distance trips, do the 100% at home, and then top up at 20% to 80% again- rather than going to 100%- that last 20% takes as long to do as the previous 60% does!!!- most current EV's will do that 20-80 charge in less than 30 minutes, some in under 15 minutes... most add 10km per minute or more 'top up' in that 20-80% band...)


Only the very oldest of houses will need any kind of 'supply upgrade'- if your house can support an electric stove/oven or electric hot water system, it can support an EV charger without needing any upgrades to the street supply!!! (a 7kw takes a 32A breaker, same as is fitted to a standard ring circuit in the UK, but on its own spur circuit...)

Most EV chargers these days have 'whole house monitoring' of the power usage (via current clamp metering), and are 'smart' chargers that monitor the household electricity usage, and are capable of 'throttling down' when the houses electricity consumption rises to the preset 'household maximum'- ie if you decide to have a midnight hot spa bath and turn on the hot tub, it detects that the power usage has risen, and will 'turn down' the cars charge rate' if it is nearing the houses maximum preset limit (this is programmable during setup, as different age houses have different maximum street supply limits- 60A, 80A, 100A, 120A, 150A and even 200A are all found, as well as those with 3 phase supplies

View attachment 188833
The EV clamp sensor is the black thing with the grey cord, connecting to the Harvi monitor which communicates to the charger via wifi, the other one with the black/white leads is a whole house meter- they literally come in two halves, clip over the power cable, and the charger knows its own consumption, and with the data from the Harvi in this case, also knows the 'whole house consumption- should it get up to whatever its max is set to during installation, the charger will reduce the cars charging current down to keep it under the maximum it was set to...

Not that you need a 'fast charger' at your house, for most drivers it is a 'plug in and let it charge overnight while they sleep'... it is rare indeed they actually need a 'fast charger'

Too many uses of the word 'most'. I prefer actual numbers rather than possible 'puff'.

 

[woodieallen]

The Electric Vehicle Database lists 302 electric vehicles available in the UK. Of these, 152 have a range of 400km (250 miles) or more. Of that 152, most (125) cost £50K or more and none costs less than £36K. I would suggest that for most people there are NO affordable electric vehicles with a range of 400km.

Exactly my point. 152 out of 302 is not 'most'. Your point re prices is spot-on.

 

[woodieallen]

MG5 Estate, currently available at Perry in Leeds for £19k, 250 miles range, 7 year warranty etc. Even at full list price it's £32,500.

WhatCar review.

Also the review pointed out that 'Just bear in mind that, like all electric models, the MG5 is unlikely to achieve that quoted figure in real-world driving conditions (expect more like 200 miles from a full charge of the battery).

 

[Lons]

MG5 Estate, currently available at Perry in Leeds for £19k, 250 miles range, 7 year warranty etc. Even at full list price it's £32,500.

There are only a few reason's a dealer would or could sell a new car with 35% discount.

1. Huge government subsidy
2. Huge manufacturer subsidy
3. Dealer has too many of that model

For reasons 2 and 3 read - because they can't sell the damn things.

Also the review stated "You'd still have to be free from the affliction of badge snobbery to consider it and have no particular interest in the joy of driving"

 

[Spectric]

but also because it seems the EVs are generally very ugly and pretty much all the same.

Just like milk floats used to be ! I think the Prius started the ugly revolution yet is the Tesla not based on a Mercedes body shell ? Also you have to make them more bloated to accomodate the batteries, with ICE you just had a single fuel tank which could hold a lot of energy but with EV you need a lot of batteries to get the energy and range.

Probably because computers have more and more influence. If information and requirements are fed into a computer the result will be the same no matter whose computer it is.

That is the same for woodworking where a specific tool is used which might dictate the style of what is made and everyone using that tool will be producing similar work. The same for the noise that comes across our radio's where they use electronics to make someone into some sort of singer so everyone wailing into this box produces a very similar output sound.

Maybe people went through this process when cars first appeared and were going to replace their four legged modes of transport, now you needed this flamable liquid instead of bales of hay and a few carrots.

 

[Agent_zed]

They all tend to look similar- because aerodynamics means they all have a similar shape (ICE and EV) to maximise their efficiency, and 'extreme' vehicles tend to be unpopular (I like EV's, but OMFG- there's no way in hell I'd buy a 'Cybertruck'- talk about 'fugly'... looks like a stealth fighter crashed into a garbage skip from the rear lol)

not sure I'd agree with that. Whilst they have improved the aerodynamics for the specific design, there are better similar size designs. I think they have mostly just stuck with designs from the 80's that sold well.

This is an old-ish list but shows some interesting things

https://ecomodder.com/wiki/Vehicle_Coefficient_of_Drag_List

For instance the similarly sized 2001 Nissan Almera has a 0.3 Coefficient of Drag (6.13 CdA) whilst a similar age Golf has a 0.32 Coefficient of Drag (6.89 CdA). So it would make more sense in terms of aerodynamics if more cars ended up the shape of a Nissan Almera. The VW Jetta is also much more similar score to the Nissan.

Certainly agree about the Cybertruck though.

Whilst it's not for everyone I think the Aptera is amazing https://aptera.us/vehicle/ and it gets a 0.15 Coefficient of Drag which is insanely good. It's unlikely everyone will be driving around in these anytime soon but some of the ideas in a toned down form would be great in future car design. Mostly people have to get away from their idea of what a car looks like at the moment, which is hard.

I would certainly have a Aptera though, 20miles a day free driving from the inbuilt solar panels (in the UK, California would see more like 40) seems to be fantastic idea. I can't imagine many people complaining if their ICE cars got an extra 20miles just by leaving it in a sunny position.

 

[Agent_zed]

Also you have to make them more bloated to accomodate the batteries, with ICE you just had a single fuel tank which could hold a lot of energy but with EV you need a lot of batteries to get the energy and range.

but with ICE you have to have a higher bonnet (unless you have a boxer engine or mount it at the rear), so your frontal area cannot change shape as much as with an EV. I don't like teslas but the model 3 seems to have a much lower bonnet than ICE cars.

 

[Spectric]

I think with EV's it is getting the mass of batteries fitted whilst still providing luggage space that is a key design issue. Yes you do not want the batteries sitting up high, keep there mass as low as possible for better handling and less work for the suspension.

 

[AJB Temple]

I suspect Aptera would not be legal in the EU. The axle and suspension struts are in a gap to the wheel pods and would be a deathtrap for pedestrians. Personally I would not even consider a three wheeler either, unless it was very low speed.

Reducing the drag co-efficient in electric cars is relatively easy. However, it comes with significant usability compromises as it is much more difficult to get in and out of very low cars, especially as we age. My FiL is very fit, but at 80 he finds it difficult enough to get out of a Tesla X and a low slung car would be unpleasant for him on a regular basis. In such cars visibility is badly compromised too among taller traffic.

That said, I'm all for the march of technology. For most of my life driving has been fun. But nowadays that is frowned upon and vehicles are a mere utility. I don't care what they look like if they get me and my luggage from here to wherever with no stress, delay or discomfort. Driverless pods would be fine with me and that is where we will end up.

 

[AJB Temple]

I think with EV's it is getting the mass of batteries fitted whilst still providing luggage space that is a key design issue. Yes you do not want the batteries sitting up high, keep there mass as low as possible for better handling and less work for the suspension.

Really? My experience of EVs with myself and friends cars , is that the battery is a low slung slab at chassis level. The motors are at the same level so there is a through floor pan (no gearbox or transmission) and a huge amount of luggage space. C of G is very low with this configuration.