Domino Jointers Are they really worth it, or just a gimic

[TRITON]

Im anti woke too, usually about 8am when the alarm goes off

 

[ArferMo]

I‘m always intrigued by some who feel the need to personalise things. I’m very much anti Woke and believe we are all entitled to an opinion, regardless of how that may upset others, but it can always be made without it becoming personal. In my opinion thats the mark of gentlemanly behaviour.

Yet here here you are, posting about my personal style.

 

[Stuart Moffat]

I've never owned a biscuit jointer, but have had a Domino 500 for a couple of years. 18 months ago I used it to join several railway sleepers which my wife wanted to rearrange to make some bit raised borders on a concrete pad. I only used the dominos as a means to keep the sleepers in a line so that that the arrangement didn't spread with the weight of soil. A few months later she wanted to rearrange the area! These were real, old sleepers that are very heavy. The first to be moved were a pair that I had butt jointed using just a pair of 50x10 biscuiats (the largest possible in the 500 machine). I levered one end off the ground with a pickaxe and tucked a bit of wood under, and then did the same the other end. I expected that the Dominos would come apart but they didn't. I intended to put some round posts under it to roll it to where it had to go, but (probably foolish I know) a mate of mine got the other end to me and we carried them. about 10 yards. I've never carried anything so heavy. But they went into place without the joints failing. (we did roll the rest! Those Dominoes really do add some strength, not just hold stuff in line!

 

[petermillard]

Yes,, and whist you were making furniture, and some useful videos along the way, we could all see your integrity but always slightly mindful you might have been hyping products. For me, and I only speak for me, knowing you have an income from the videos now - Google advertisng fees for a start - makes the videos you produce more suspect. Sorry, but that is the way it is; you've demoted yourself to become an 'influencer' with about as much credibility as Piers Morgan's left foot.

Well, leaving aside the silliness of that paragraph (I was earning money from Adsense while I was still making a living from fitted furniture, and I have no idea how much credibility Piers Morgan's left foot has - do tell) that's absolutely your right to hold those opinions, no matter how wrong or baseless they are.

Aminster say "The Tenso is part of the Lamello Zeta connector range; it anchors in the T-slot in the 'P' system groove. This invisible fitting clamps two parts together with a tensile force of 15kg. The retention force of 25kg makes a tight connection that does away with the need for clamps. Use the Tenso with glue or with normal biscuits or other 'P' style connectors." ... so 15kg clamping force rather than 7kg petermiilard suggests. Also try using the peanut on long mitres!

I'd have to dig out the paperwork to be sure, but I was taking my 7Kg figure from the original docs that came with my Lamello - the folks who make the machine, not the ones trying to sell you one. Or - wild idea - try watching the part of the above video where the Tenso-fitted carcass collapses under its own weight as I turn it from its end onto its base - around 09:45 - and then tell me with a straight face that that's '25Kg of retention force' per fitting, in action; that's 30 Tenso connectors in that carcass, btw, all letting go with alarming ease.

As for Peanuts, use them, or don't - I really don't care one way or another - but as I've said repeatedly, they're an interesting connector, and an alternative that's worthy of consideration, whatever jointing system you already have in place. I'm a long term Domino user and I can't imagine being without one as it is, in my experience, the most flexible and versatile jointing system by far - but that didn't stop my buying a Lamello Zeta. And owning both didn't stop my trying the Peanut system - which incidentally, was designed for exactly that kind of awkward joint (long mitres/bevels) in the lowest-end materials imaginable.

Enjoy the rest of the weekend. P

 

[TheTiddles]

Oh my, someone making money from making entertaining videos, this on the back of people selling furniture for money is almost too much to bear, it is surely only days till the implosion of human society….

out of curiosity ArferMo, what do you fill your days with adding to the benefit of humanity for no charge whatsoever?

 

[TRITON]

Well, leaving aside the silliness of that paragraph (I was earning money from Adsense while I was still making a living from fitted furniture, and I have no idea how much credibility Piers Morgan's left foot has - do tell) that's absolutely your right to hold those opinions, no matter how wrong or baseless they are.



I'd have to dig out the paperwork to be sure, but I was taking my 7Kg figure from the original docs that came with my Lamello - the folks who make the machine, not the ones trying to sell you one. Or - wild idea - try watching the part of the above video where the Tenso-fitted carcass collapses under its own weight as I turn it from its end onto its base - around 09:45 - and then tell me with a straight face that that's '25Kg of retention force' per fitting, in action; that's 30 Tenso connectors in that carcass, btw, all letting go with alarming ease.

As for Peanuts, use them, or don't - I really don't care one way or another - but as I've said repeatedly, they're an interesting connector, and an alternative that's worthy of consideration, whatever jointing system you already have in place. I'm a long term Domino user and I can't imagine being without one as it is, in my experience, the most flexible and versatile jointing system by far - but that didn't stop my buying a Lamello Zeta. And owning both didn't stop my trying the Peanut system - which incidentally, was designed for exactly that kind of awkward joint (long mitres/bevels) in the lowest-end materials imaginable.

Enjoy the rest of the weekend. P

Ive just realized youre the chap in the vids

I hope you dont mind me posting them up, but your jigs are just fantastic, and save me a power of brain fogging throwing hands in the air kicking stuff across the workshop tantrums.

Thats a great workshop set up you have. Very planned out.
My own is a mere 120square foot, but poorly arranged to be honest. This is the problem from coming from years at a private cabinet shop which was about 1000 sqm, had everything, different rooms for finishing, machines et all. I thought all private shop were about that so it was a blessing to see yours wasnt like that but very thought out and fitted.

Keep up the good work

 

[Spectric]

I too am anti "woke".
Mainly 'cos I've not a clue what it means!

I think it is one of these modern bull shiete words that some muppet has invented to define something they did not understand, probably that weird brigade who cannot accept that humans are male, female or right angle and want to try and classify everything else in an attempt to make it acceptable.

 

[reck123]

This topic comes up occasionally on various fori, and the common response is for someone to slag off biscuits after they have purchased a Domino. Generally the point is missed, in my opinion.

By choice, I built solid wood furniture using traditional joinery with hand tools. That is my go-to for quality furniture. I would not use a domino for large mortice and tenon joints - the advantage of proper M&T joinery is that one can design the joint to fit the purpose. Dominos are one shape (in different sizes) fits all.

Still, I use machines because they are the appropriate tools for preparing boards, and I have all the power tools most could wish for. That includes a Festool Domino DF500 and a DeWalt biscuit machine. Both are useful and both have strengths and weaknesses. Keep in mind that dominos are short and deep (like mortice and tenon joints) and biscuits are long and shallow (like a spline).

When I built my kitchen I used the Domino for the great many frame-and-panel doors. These needed mortice-and-tenon joints. I am presently building a couple of bedside tables, which have mitred edges. These use biscuits. The case is 19mm thick and I could not use dominos to reinforce the mitres (as the mortice would go straight through the board).

I do believe that the bad rep biscuits got was due to their being used inappropriately. They are never going to be a replacement for a loose tenon since they are too shallow. Similarly, dominos cannot replace biscuits with shallow joinery since their strength lies in their depth.

Get both machines. I am waiting for the great revival of biscuit machines, which will occur when many realised they they were hasty in getting rid of theirs!

Regards from Perth

Derek

HI Derek,

I am making bedsides all the time ( a product i sell on etsy) simple hardwood cabinet with miter constuction also with 19mm thick material. You can definitely use dominos on 19mm material miters. The trick is to remove the preset thickness stop so the fence drops down completely then lock it off. This way you are plunging the domino right at the top/thickest portion of the mitre and preventing the cutter from blowing out the otherside. you can fit a good 15mm mortise in there if you really wanted. I also find the domino on this type of cabinet construction does a better job during glueup at keeping everything aligned (if you used the paddle stops and on the tight setting) than biscuits not to mention the obvious strength benefits of using a mortise and tenon on a end to endgrain joint

cheers

 

[sometimewoodworker]

The case is 19mm thick and I could not use dominos to reinforce the mitres (as the mortice would go straight through the board).

Your furniture your choice of alignment, but are you sure that the 4mm domino is too big?
I haven’t tried domino mitres but I’m pretty sure it would be OK

 

[sometimewoodworker]

Enjoy the rest of the weekend. P

I would treat his views with the respect they deserve, (zero) as warped and twisted as they are.

Anyone with a degree of common sense can differentiate between useful information and technique and product placement fluff. If the person making the videos is paid is not important. As an example Alex Snodgrass is hailed as a bandsaw wizard explaining the way to set up a bandsaw. (1.2million views) He is paid to do that by Carter products a company involved in the industry.

Your content is more polished than others due to your previous profession, is well thought out and presents information and techniques that are very helpful. That you got paid for your first second and now third jobs certainly doesn’t make your work any less valuable, totally the opposite as you wouldn’t have been able to continue in them and continue to get follow up work time and time again if you did a poor job.
Unfortunately some people will never see that and suffer from verbal diarrhoea using the internet as their toilet receptacle. It’s as pleasant to observe as the other version, but says more about the character of the sufferer than the object it’s directed at.
Keep up the good work and presenting good content. Thank you from Thailand I hope your weekend has as good weather as mine.
Warm sunny weather with occasional warm, never cold, rain is something I enjoy. YMMV
TTFN

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Your furniture your choice of alignment, but are you sure that the 4mm domino is too big?
I haven’t tried domino mitres but I’m pretty sure it would be OK

4mm wide dominos .... you need a million of them. Compared with a full size biscuit, which is considerably wider. Plus the biscuits have a little more lateral fiddle room to line up edges.

I am making bedsides all the time ( a product i sell on etsy) simple hardwood cabinet with miter constuction also with 19mm thick material. You can definitely use dominos on 19mm material miters. The trick is to remove the preset thickness stop so the fence drops down completely then lock it off. This way you are plunging the domino right at the top/thickest portion of the mitre and preventing the cutter from blowing out the otherside.

I do fit the biscuit at the upper (thickest) edge of the mitre. Even so, it seems to be a close fit. I shall try out your suggestion next time, nevertheless. It is always good to learn something new. Still, the biscuits are easier to "fiddle" than dominos. As I mentioned earlier, biscuits are splines and dominos are loose tenons.

Here are some pics of biscuiting a mitred case (actually two). This represents my quick-and-dirty make-your-wife-happy furniture. My preference is hand tool-orientated traditional joinery, which makes up the pieces I post here fairly frequently.

The case is made up of Merbau panels, which come ready-made from the local borg (Bunnings). Mitred and cut to size, then biscuited. The work is held on the parallel guide I built for the slider of my Hammer K3 ...

The biscuit joiner needs a spacer (6mm MDF) on the fence to lower the cutter ...

Positioning the biscuit slots ...

Mid Century style bedside cabinets. The Merbau will be stained to match the Jarrah drawer front. The legs are Blue Gum (another eucalyptus), and will be stained as well.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[NormanB]

Peanuts are limited function connectors: butt joints only, pretty much. Cheap and cheerful. I used to do very similar with #10 wood screws at a slight tilt, so the countersink head would climb the pocket when driven sideways to edge join boards. That was over half a century ago and it's now been resurrected and over-hyped as peanut.

Nuts is about right. And YouTube 'what's his face' is just making a living promoting it. He's given up the day job, remember. His video showing the peanut faster than a Zeta 2 constructing a cabinet, rather neatly neglected to fully account for the time spent making peanut's jigs. A little less than honest IMHO.

What a typical Brit bit of nastiness.
PM has provided plenty of information FREE to viewers and always goes the extra mile to identify and review ‘cheaper alternatives’ to the higher price solutions.
He has been a great help to me and to thousands of others.
So what’s your USP? How many have you helped?. How many people have you entertained with you superb social skills- both your friends I suppose?

 

[sometimewoodworker]

4mm wide dominos .... you need a million of them. Compared with a full size biscuit, which is considerably wider. Plus the biscuits have a little more lateral fiddle room to line up edges.

4mm wide !!! What are you smoking??? That would be a dowel FFS.
There is a 4mm domino bit and you can give wiggle room by using the wide or medium setting on the domino.

If the pic isn’t clear 16 mm wide x 18mm long

EDIT TO ADD
The 4mm domino would absolutely do the job at least as well as the biscuits and would allow much more wiggle room if wanted.
I hadn’t bothered to check the sizes until just now.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Here are some pics of biscuiting a mitred case (actually two). This represents my quick-and-dirty make-your-wife-happy furniture.

The biscuit joiner needs a spacer (6mm MDF) on the fence to lower the cutter ...

Interesting approach, Derek. When I biscuit mitres with my DeWalt machine I set the fence to 90 degrees to create the 45 degree corner at the intersection between the two fences and use this register the machine off the outside corner of the mitre. I've always found this method easy to set up, quick, and reliable.

I prefer this to your way, which I have used but found to be a bit tricky to prevent slippage of the machine towards the centre of the board's length which leads to misalignment. Still, if your method works for you that seems good enough to me. Slainte.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

What a typical Brit bit of nastiness.
PM has provided plenty of information FREE to viewers and always goes the extra mile to identify and review ‘cheaper alternatives’ to the higher price solutions.
He has been a great help to me and to thousands of others.
So what’s your USP? How many have you helped?. How many people have you entertained with you superb social skills- both your friends I suppose?

Well said, Norman.

Peter, I much appreciate your videos. These are well presented, easy to follow, and carry an abundance of information.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[pe2dave]

Enough already, enjoy your day folks, let's get back to woodwork?

 

[petermillard]

Ive just realized youre the chap in the vids

I hope you dont mind me posting them up, but your jigs are just fantastic, and save me a power of brain fogging throwing hands in the air kicking stuff across the workshop tantrums.

Thats a great workshop set up you have. Very planned out.
My own is a mere 120square foot, but poorly arranged to be honest. This is the problem from coming from years at a private cabinet shop which was about 1000 sqm, had everything, different rooms for finishing, machines et all. I thought all private shop were about that so it was a blessing to see yours wasnt like that but very thought out and fitted.

Keep up the good work

Thank you. And please, your thread - post / repost what you like! My workshop is about 280 sq ft but split into two rooms, so the actual workspace side isn’t much bigger than yours - though you can’t beat a decent chunk of storage! I had to be reasonably organised just to get thought the kind of work I did, but if it’s the workspace you have, then you have to make it work!

 

[petermillard]

Thanks @sometimewoodworker , @NormanB , @Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)

Enough already, enjoy your day folks, let's get back to woodwork?

Not sure this thread was ever about woodwork, but yes, let's give it a shot. So @TRITON, have you bought that Domino yet?

My two-penneth, for what it's worth. The Domino's a brilliant machine - yes, it's a bit pricey but it holds it's value almost stupidly well (those annual price increases work in your favour, long-term) and does exactly the job it was designed to do. Yes, loose tenons have been around for thousands of years (Phoenicians, I think??) and 'all' the Domino does is make the cutting and alignment of loose tenons easier and faster; if you don't use that many then it's probably a luxury, if you use lots, then it will pay for itself quickly. If you have limited workshop time *and* want to get on with making things *and* have the funds, then it's a worthwhile investment - and this is where it seems to rub people up the wrong way. Festool are good at marketing themselves to what I call the 'retired doctor and dentist' hobby crowd - especially in the US - and for some reason this attracts the ire of almost half the people who’ve never seen, held, or used a Domino.

Weirdly, the other almost half who’ve never seen one, held one, or used one, seem to think it will be the answer to all their joining prayers and will instantly transform them into a master craftsman, and yes, some of them might buy a Domino and blab on about it on forums or Facebook groups, but then comfortably-fixed folks with hobbies have always done that - see also pro-grade tennis rackets, golf clubs, cameras and lenses, running shoes, etc.. etc.. all being used to a tiny fraction of their potential by folks with money to spend on something they enjoy. This takes nothing away from the effectiveness of those goods, wether they’re running shoes or power tools.

Let’s not discount the pleasure of ownership, too; I love a cheap tool, I’m a cheap tool champion, and I’ve said on many occasions that we live in a golden age of power-tool plenty. But using the Domino - or the Lamello Zeta - brings a smile to my face, using the Triton doweller, a grimace. The Mafell doweller, a kind of gritted teeth surprised expression that tries to convey the ‘fcuk me this plunge is bsatard heavy’ reality of a tool that costs more than the Domino but really isn’t anything like as easy to use.

So, buy a Domino, or don’t; if you’re a happy biscuit user, stay happy and save a few quid - quite a few quid - or make yourself the loose-tenon jig that I did recently that really is a very good, cheap and easy way to try out loose tenons and to adapt to your own requirements - and the commercial flat-pack version I’m prototyping will be better again.

But as good as it is, it’s no Domino; you pay your money and make your choice, and I made mine a long, long time ago.

Cheers, P

 

[TRITON]

have you bought that Domino yet?

No. Going to be a decent extractor first.
My prob is the workshop is in the house(3 bed flat- 2 rooms now given over to workshop- machine/working room, and smaller bedroom is the woodstore/bike room) and ive only really a small fine dust extractor which i hardly use, but the dust does get everywhere and lung condition isnt what its used to so thought maybe extraction would be a better option, than yet another machine.

I think the domino is just out of my range really. I cant justify the cost for the options it would give me. If i was back working in industry I could offset such an outlay from earned income, I used to price a job including maybe a machine or such I needed for it - Lathe, bigger saw or extra drill or something,but not working, there are other more important items I should think of first.

I'll keep saving though, maybe in the future I can find a way to get one.

 

[Jake]

Your furniture your choice of alignment, but are you sure that the 4mm domino is too big?
I haven’t tried domino mitres but I’m pretty sure it would be OK

I've done domino mitres a few times in stuff about that thickness. As long as you position the slot closer to the start rather than the tip of the mitre it works well.