That bit isn't in issue as far as anything I have said (or thought) is concerned. Festool are really well engineered tools, and I am fortunate to have both versions, they are great tools. I just find it hard to see what unique qualities they have which are both patentable and would prevent parallel engineering.
Domino Jointers Are they really worth it, or just a gimic
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That bit isn't in issue as far as anything I have said (or thought) is concerned. Festool are really well engineered tools, and I am fortunate to have both versions, they are great tools. I just find it hard to see what unique qualities they have which are both patentable and would prevent parallel engineering.
I wonder how the patent would standup if a competitor made a loose tenon router mortiser? To visualise this think of the Domino being based on the principle layout of a biscuit joiner, it's plunge methodology is the same except it has some Dna from a hedge trimmer, only the cutting method is different. Now take this cutting principle but apply to a plunge router with two handles, turret type depth stop and even a router style collet along with a router style fence and you now have a different beast, and think of using it with a guide bush & fence, alignment becomes very easy.
sometimewoodworker
Established Member
Mobile!?
Distinterior
Established Member
Compact..? Portable..?
China can usualy make copys of new tools within a dayHow long do patents last, before other companies can make use of the technology before launching their own version ?. I seem to remember it's something like 20 years.
Leading to the next question of how long has the domino machine been in use*.
*Again, seem to remember its something like 2005 or 2006so maybe in 5 years we'll start seeing more versions on the market, and no doubt a considerable drop in price.
TheTiddles
Established Member
I believe you found your own answer there!
danst96
Established Member
Rubbish chisels yes, a worthy copy of a quality piece of machinery, no. Chinese are masters of ripping stuff off but they aren't always worth it.
TheTiddles
Established Member
Go on, give an example please?
danst96
Established Member
Further more, Chinese companies generally pay no attention to patents or IP of western companies and it's very hard to hold Chinese responsible for this so if they were able to make a copy they would have done it already.
Yes, well, that is why I looked for it. I reckon most of those claims could be engineered around and/or challenged if anyone cared. One of them is that the cutter comes out of a slot. OK that's solid.
TheTiddles
Established Member
Well, I’m sure there are companies who would pay you for that knowledge, perhaps the plethora of power tool companies who all make circular saws, angle grinders, impact drivers, drills and the other types of tools that you can choose one manufacturer from 20 or more options are just missing that.
Alternatively, maybe it’s not quite that easy?
I've done a fair bit of patent law in my time Mr Tiddles. Might not be an engineer but I can recognise a flimsy claim.
I think the reason they haven't been engineered around is the market for them is limited. I guess we will find out in 2024 when by your logic there will be at least 20 different versions coming out.
I think the reason they haven't been engineered around is the market for them is limited. I guess we will find out in 2024 when by your logic there will be at least 20 different versions coming out.
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TheTiddles
Established Member
That’s an interesting thought.
Power tools are almost a commodity item, there’s little IP in cordless drills etc… the outliers seem to be rail saws (but that’s almost gone now) and this one item left that only Festool make (can’t think of any others, I’m open to suggestions). Comparisons with biscuit jointers abound and whilst they are different, there are many similarities and many companies make those, is the market for them large, yet for this other similar number device small, despite how much many makers rate them?
In future will we associate the loose tennon jointer with the company that circumvented the IP of the inventor and undercut them in the way we do James Watt over James Picard?
Power tools are almost a commodity item, there’s little IP in cordless drills etc… the outliers seem to be rail saws (but that’s almost gone now) and this one item left that only Festool make (can’t think of any others, I’m open to suggestions). Comparisons with biscuit jointers abound and whilst they are different, there are many similarities and many companies make those, is the market for them large, yet for this other similar number device small, despite how much many makers rate them?
In future will we associate the loose tennon jointer with the company that circumvented the IP of the inventor and undercut them in the way we do James Watt over James Picard?
I think you mean, some individual companies within China, rather than an all encompassing 'China'.
danst96
Established Member
Tell me a world leading product in its class that was designed in China. China's economy is built on reproducing Western products. This is either through Western companies moving their production there or Chinese companies "repurposing" western designs and IP. I work for a company placing millions of pounds of business to China every year and see it in action all the time.
Duo-Doweller now has the Triton copy and that's it so far, but obviously that was/is less popular so even more niche. It's also lot simpler to build a cheap copy of that than a domino or domino-equivalent, I imagine.
The biscuit jointer is an interesting comparison - Lamello launched their first handheld one in 1968. Virutex were apparently the first copy-cat in 1982 ('just' 14 years). I have no idea what patents Lamello had over their machine though, but in many ways it seems more genuinely inventive than the Domino which is a smart amalgam of the biscuit jointer (as modified by notoriously borrowing Mafell's DD40 fence pins until beating a hasty retreat to the wedges) and those old style stationary oscillating drill morticers. That's not to denigrate the domino system or machines or the ingenuity or engineering or execution or business savvy etc, but the pure technical innovation doesn't seem that great a step to me. I imagine there's some pretty cute engineering in the gearbox but the insides of that aren't covered in those patents at least.
Like I say, we'll see in March or so 2024. Patent expiry will obviously lower the barriers to entry by making it easier and less risky.
I'll being hanging on to the blue and green ones anyway, they'll see me out unless I'm very unlucky.
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