Who is in and who is out?

[swagman]

Those unhappy with the result of the referendum can always try and immigrate to Australia; obviously we're not overly keen on the common variety -whinging pom. :roll: ; the Scots and the Irish receive automatic entry.

 

[custard]

I wonder if you underestimate how cross the EU is going to be if you think you are going to get something as amicable as Norway or Swiss style deals. I predict the EU might want make an example of the UK.

We can get that deal, that's not the problem.

The problem will be managing the howls of rage when many people who voted "Out" realise that we're not really out at all. That's going to change the face of British politics. The Conservative party will rally under Boris and convince themselves that they've achieved their primary goal of sovereignty (rather than curbing immigration) so it's job done. But Labour will be torn apart, losing votes to Scottish Nationalists and a resurgent UKIP who will continue to campaign when the statistics show that immigration is continuing to fuel UK population growth year after year.

Here you go...


“We don’t think there is a need to swiftly invoke Article 50,” Matthew Elliott, the chief executive of Vote Leave, told Reuters in an interview.

“Its best for the dust to settle over the summer and during that time for there to be informal negotiations with other states,” he said.

Elliott said the full settlement on Britain’s exit would include all aspects of the relationship, including the British contribution to the EU, access to the single market, extradition agreements and so-called passporting for financial services.

“There is no reason why a sensible arrangement couldn’t be put in place for passporting to continue,” he said.

 

[BearTricks]

The referendum is finished , the decision made, live with it, in the same way you would expect the other side to have lived with it if the the result had been Remain.

Farage said that a 52 - 48 split in favour of remain would have been too close to trust and we should have had a revote. I'm sure he would have been grandstanding if that was the case but instead he's keeping his mouth shut about that.

On another note, half my family is Jewish. They left mainland Europe at some point in the last 150 years, and converted to Christianity in the early 20th century out of (from what I can tell) fear that they'd face the consequences if attitudes failed to change. Not forgetting that anti-Jewish sentiment existed all over Europe, not just in Germany.

That said I've heard the remain camp and the EU as a whole referred to as a spiritual successor to Nazism and, in one extreme case, as Hitler's plan all along. Of course this argument exists on both sides but it's insulting and distasteful, particularly because there's a lot of "We fought for the freedoms that the EU is denying". In actual fact, we fought a political ideology that sought racial purification in a number of countries.

It's funny that, on the man-on-the-street interviews I watched this morning, the whole "we fought a war" sentiment is expressed without irony alongside statements about getting rid of all the muslims.

In any case I'm personally insulted by people invoking the Nazis as if the mention of them suddenly gives their arguments more heft.

 

[Inoffthered]

In any case I'm personally insulted by people invoking the Nazis as if the mention of them suddenly gives their arguments more heft.

And you are probably upset in the same way that Leavers are insulted by being painted as racists by the Remainiacs.

It was truly ironic that Remainer Alan Sugar referred to Gisla Stewart by her German maiden name with the added comment of why are being being told what to do by a German! Of course if Farage had come out with a comment like that the liberal left would have gone into meltdown mode.

The referendum is over, the decision has been made, life goes on.

 

[custard]

Well said Bear Tricks.

Interesting that you mention Farage. Wonder what his plans are? It's not like he's an actual MP so he can't be considered for any parliamentary role, besides which the Conservatives mistrust and indeed loath him, so there's no future for him there. UKIP has flown the "Mission Accomplished" banner so if it's to continue it needs a fresh challenge, and Nigel certainly doesn't want to leave our TV screens now that he's a bona fide celebrity. So what's he going to do?

The answer's simple. He'll re-invent UKIP to campaign against what he will claim is the great injustice of what's about to happen, namely that...nothing much will actually happen!

We'll cobble together a deal with Europe that will give us access to their markets, and in return we'll hand over some cash and continue to take EU immigrants. But there will be an elaborate charade that it's absolutely nothing like the Norwegian or Swiss deals. The Conservative party will hold its collective nose, close ranks behind Boris, and put all that unpleasantness behind them, and "New UKIP" will bite great big chunks out of the Labour vote as it becomes increasingly and nakedly racist. About all that might be different is that any politician worth their salt will take away one abiding lesson, no more of this direct democracy referendum stuff, it's just too hazardous to a political career, so it's parliamentary democracy only from now on.

 

[Rhossydd]

Of course the BBC receives funding from the EU

This myth has been dissected and proved false here before.

If you want to criticise the BBC, and they've a lot to answer for, at least hit at their faults.

 

[DennisCA]

I think we are in a stronger position that you realise.

I think that's a common conviction in britain at any rate. Time will tell.

 

[custard]

And now the most senior Foreign Ministers in the EU have just issued a collective statement,

http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/EN/Infos ... RSION.html

Looks much like an olive branch to me. They say they're very sorry that they've upset the electorate, have learnt their lesson, and invite the UK government to sit down and see if something can't be worked out...which of course it can, especially as paymaster Merkel is standing in the wings telling them all to find a way, anyway, but just fix it!

Sure, there'll be all sorts of bluff and bluster served up for the Greeks and the Catalonians, but in the smoke filled rooms where the real business takes place it's looking increasingly likely that our future is to remain in the Europe village, just in a slightly more detached property set back a discrete distance from the High Street.

 

[Inoffthered]

Of course the BBC receives funding from the EU

This myth has been dissected and proved false here before.

If you want to criticise the BBC, and they've a lot to answer for, at least hit at their faults.

No EU money, are you serious? They just don't like people to know!

What about this then?
£2m just before the referendum
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -bias.html

And how about this?
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2014/02/th ... d-to-hide/



BBC pro EU bias and propaganda, bought and paid for.

 

[Rhossydd]

No EU money, are you serious?

Did you read the dissection of these payments I made previously ?
The £2m figure is almost entirely for work done for the EU. In particular, research and development of 3D & HD television broadcasting done years ago. Paying for that to be done hardly gets any bias in the totally different business of news and current affairs broadcasting.
The second figure went towards the BBC World Service Trust making education and informational broadcasts.
Buying services from the BBC's training department to assist with developing the professionalism of broadcasters in Georgia, or making programmes to help deal with malnutrition advice in Sahelian West Africa is hardly going to make the slightest difference to editorial policy on the Today programme, Newsnight or even the general tone of coverage. If any of the NCA crowd even were aware of it happening at all.
RogerS posted more detailed breakdowns at post1062218.html#p1062218

As I said, if you want to have a pop at the BBC at least hit a valid fault. Don't fall for more silly headlines that aren't correct.

 

[lurker]

Are you suggesting it would be more just for quite a bit less than 37% of the electorate, the Remainiacs, to keep the country in Europe when the rest didn't vote for that ?

No. I'm pointing out that 17m people out of a population 65m isn't much of a real majority for such radical damaging change.

You twist the numbers
no where near 65 million are eligible to vote
If 17ish and 16ish say 35 =72%
You are suggesting 30* =28%

*35 - 65 = 30

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

In my opinion it's a sad moment for Britain and a terrible mistake to leave the EU, however a referendum was called and the leave camp won, not by much but they won, you can't start counting the non voters. Maybe this same principal should be remembered when the Tories bring in anti strike union laws where 40% of members of the union must vote for strike action as well as over 50% of votes cast. It's wrong to count non voters in union laws and it is wrong for Brexit.
Interestingly in most general elections and nearly all local elections the non voters outnumber those who voted for the winning party

 

[Rhossydd]

Nigel Farrage didn't think a 52-48 would be decisive enough.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ni ... um-7985017

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Nigel Farrage didn't think a 52-48 would be decisive enough.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ni ... um-7985017

Yeah, but I'm not going to take ideas of what is right or wrong from that piece of .......
When you play a game you have to decide on the rules at the outset, this "game" will have severe consequences and perhaps the referendum should have never been called, but it was and common sense, tolerance and decency lost. The only course of action now is to try and mitigate the harm this will cause to the economy and to the hard working tax paying immigrants who have made their home in this country, cleaning our hospital floors while lazy Brits collect their dole and complain about immigrants with their sickening sense of entitlement (that's what it's like on my estate anyway, there are quite a few Eastern Europeans and all of them get up and go to work like me, the Brits, not so much).

 

[Grahamshed]

I have always thought that referendums were a good thing. it being only right the the people should have their say on the more important and unusual matters.

Boy was I ever wrong.

I don't want to see that load of claptrap again.

 

[Eric The Viking]

Nigel Farrage didn't think a 52-48 would be decisive enough.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ni ... um-7985017

Had it been reversed, I presume you would have thought it decisive.

There were 17.5M people, who were NOT Farage, who voted to leave, and for all sorts of reasons. The vast (and I mean VAST) majority of them are not nasty racists, but see a problem that urgently needs sorting out, namely our EU membership. We knew from Cameron's "renegotiation" it wasn't going to happen, which left no practical alternative.

. . .

But truly, I am fed up with Farage. History will show that he and Cameron have a lot to answer for:

• Cameron thought he'd shut up the eurosceptics in his party forever with a pro-EU result.
• Farage refused to make UKIP electable by doing the hard work of building the party structure properly and debating policy to find something it could unite behind ("It's Wednesday already, so what's our energy policy this week, Nigel?"). He saw a referendum as a quick way to get a result.

The right way, that wouldn't have provoked a constitutional crisis, was for UKIP to make itself electable and win a general election - or at least achieve a majority in parliament to leave the EU. That was too hard for Farage!

So now we have a situation with a clear result by plebiscite and an opposite majority in parliament, but our constitution doesn't account for referendums!

So who should prevail - the people, by referendum, or the delegates we just sent to parliament a year ago? You'd be forgiven for not knowing - I can't call it!

I want to leave the EU, obviously, and as fast as possible, for my children's sake. I also believe the British constitution is (or was, until Blair got to it!) a brilliant, practical fudge that worked very well. I don't want to see it broken like this.

Worse still, rather than just repudiating Rome and/or Lisbon (clean and simple)*, we have at least two years of semi-chaos while unwilling British bureaucrats 'negotiate' with unyielding EU ones.

That's the Cameron and Farage legacy and I resent them both for it, enormously.

E.

*You start off broadly speaking by retaining all EU legislation, and repeal anything you no longer want as/when: straightforward, but I'll admit not simple - yet nothing is in this context - it's a right mess.

 

[dynax]

The sooner a50 is implemented the sooner we can get out, then we can start rebuilding, there's no reason to drag it out any longer than necessarry,

 

[Jacob]

.........
So now we have a situation with a clear result by plebiscite and an opposite majority in parliament, but our constitution doesn't account for referendums!

So who should prevail - the people, by referendum, or the delegates we just sent to parliament a year ago? .........

They aren't "delegates" (elected to act according to our instructions) - they are autonomous "representatives" (elected to act on our behalf) and the referendum is not legally binding as Parliament is still sovereign.
They will have to vote on Article 50 and could reject the whole fiasco. I hope they do!
Ultimately the people prevail via the ballot box at the next election.

There is no constitutional crisis but there is a tricky political crisis!

 

[MIGNAL]

Won't happen anytime soon. The practicalities of leaving just aren't that simple. Apparently we don't have the skilled trade negotiators to move at anything like the speed that the Brexit camp suggest. It's going to take some 4 months and that's just to elect a new Tory party leader.
Meanwhile. . . . business waits to see what happens. Good luck with that. It's fast sounding to me like the politics of the lunatic asylum but then again it never did seem like a good idea to me.

https://next.ft.com/content/3c76e90a-27 ... d781d02d89

 

[RobinBHM]

And now the most senior Foreign Ministers in the EU have just issued a collective statement,

http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/EN/Infos ... RSION.html

Looks much like an olive branch to me. They say they're very sorry that they've upset the electorate, have learnt their lesson, and invite the UK government to sit down and see if something can't be worked out...which of course it can, especially as paymaster Merkel is standing in the wings telling them all to find a way, anyway, but just fix it!

Sure, there'll be all sorts of bluff and bluster served up for the Greeks and the Catalonians, but in the smoke filled rooms where the real business takes place it's looking increasingly likely that our future is to remain in the Europe village, just in a slightly more detached property set back a discrete distance from the High Street.

Hi Custard, thanks for posting that link, I thought it very interesting. A bit different to the attitude of Juncker, who is not going to be at all helpful, judging by his arrogant attitude.