Who is in and who is out?

[Woodmonkey]

We can't in any way change the EU decision makers through the ballot box. We can't change it's direction if we don't like it.

Ultimately, the Westminster parliament is more accountable to the people over whom it governs than the EU is.

Did you even read it? Do you even acknowledge that your earlier post was inaccurate?

We do control the decision makers, as they are either the MEPs, or representatives from national goverments - i.e. Westminster, who we can change at will in the usual way.

I stand by what I wrote. The European Commission is the body that proposes EU law. Commissioners are appointed, not elected. In Westminster, government Ministers are the proposers of laws, and they are elected. If we, the electorate, vote in enough numbers, we can change the direction of government. We can't do that with the EU.

(I don't doubt that there are mechanisms for minor legislation to be proposed by MEPs, just as there are mechanisms for back-benchers to propose legislation in Westminster. That, however, is something of a side-issue; the important business is conducted as described.)

No we can't. Over five million people combined voted for either ukip or greens in the last election and they only won 1 mp each. So no, on that point you are wrong.

 

[t8hants]

Before we joined the Eu we were trading with the world and had a world outlook, since we have been turned inward and made to jump to the command of any sniveling snot-grovel of a country whose total economy is less than that of Manchester.
If it takes thirty years of grinding recession as a result of brexit, it will still be a price worth paying as the price of freedom is never too high.
The European parliament is a sham designed to create the illusion of democracy.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

No we can't. Over five million people combined voted for either ukip or greens in the last election and they only won 1 mp each. So no, on that point you are wrong.

But we did in 1979, 1997 and 2010.

 

[Jake]

I stand by what I wrote.

Didn't you complain that MEPs do not have a veto power then?

Didn't you say that the Council only has general steering powers rather than any detailed scrutiny role in respect of each piece of legislation drafted by the Commission?

 

[Cheshirechappie]

The European parliament is a sham designed to create the illusion of democracy.

I'm inclined to agree with that - I think the history of the last few years bears it out. Which of us voted to impose severe austerity on Greece? Which of us voted for a technocratic government in Italy?

More locally, who has been allowed to vote for or against net immigration in excess of 300,000 annually? If there is any democratic mandate, it was cast for those promising to limit net migration to the tens of thousands annually - a promise they couldn't keep because our EU treaty obligations won't allow it (which they no doubt knew full well when they made the electoral promise). None of us has ever been allowed a vote on whether or not we wish to adopt the various treaties implemented since the late 1970s. Those nations that have voted against treaty adoption have been ignored - or made to vote again until the EU elites got the answer they wanted.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I stand by what I wrote.

Didn't you complain that MEPs do not have a veto power then?

Didn't you say that the Council only has general steering powers rather than any detailed scrutiny role in respect of each piece of legislation drafted by the Commission?

Only in theory - they very rarely use it. One technique is to bombard the EP with legislation to approve, so that there is insufficient time available for anything other than voting it through virtually 'on the nod' rather than with the three-stage process in the Commons.

The Council of Ministers scrutinising legislation in detail? Oh, come on! Even you don't believe that happens!

 

[joethedrummer]

Even more confused after all this educated and in depth discussion, guess it all boils down to how a lot of voters feel on the day, but then that"s how the elected come to power...

 

[Jake]

The Council of Ministers scrutinising legislation in detail? Oh, come on! Even you don't believe that happens!

You are wrong. A lot of it is performed though the COREPER delegates, but yes, that is exactly where detailed scrutiny goes on. As well as in the EP. And each have a complicated lock on each other, it is much more sophisticated and effective control mechanism that you can possibly imagine, having started from the unevidenced belief that the Commission does what it likes. I do not expect to be able to move you from that position, but that is because it is what you want to believe, however much more complex the reality is.

 

[Rhossydd]

Which of us voted to impose severe austerity on Greece?

Largely self-inflicted after they borrowed way beyond their ability to repay.
Then banks thought it might be a good idea to try to recover some of the money they(we) were owed.

The UK has pretty huge debts too. If things go as badly as some people forecast with a leave vote, the international banks may start asking for their money back too, then we'd be put in a similar position.

"If it takes thirty years of grinding recession as a result of brexit, it will still be a price worth paying as the price of freedom is never too high." Easy to say when you're not actually having to endure a third decade of austerity. There's little comfort from 'freedom' if you have absolutely no money, not enough to eat, can't afford decent heating or clothes.

 

[Inoffthered]

Is the EU a democratic and open organisation working on behalf of EU citizens or does it have a different agenda?

When they tell you that Remain is the internationalist and outward looking option......

http://order-order.com/2016/06/17/eu-co ... h-despots/

What else are they hiding?

 

[MIGNAL]

Thirty years of grinding recession. He must be absolutely loaded, one of the wealthy elite who actually thinks it will just be a bit of local bother, old chap. Absolute crazy thing to say.

 

[t8hants]

Thirty years of grinding recession. He must be absolutely loaded, one of the wealthy elite who actually thinks it will just be a bit of local bother, old chap. Absolute crazy thing to say.

Sorry to disillusion you but I've been a lowly fabricator welder all me working life which came to a premature end when the shop closed and boss refused to pay redundancy.
The EU is non democratic in every fiber of its being. If you like being subject to foreign laws whilst you sit on your sofa or work away in your shop fine vote remain, but it is clear we are being dragged down by the EU year on year.
I want to be subject to British laws voted on by a British Parliament, not foreign ones rubber stamped by a lap dog parliament here, or in Brussels.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

The Council of Ministers scrutinising legislation in detail? Oh, come on! Even you don't believe that happens!

You are wrong. A lot of it is performed though the COREPER delegates, but yes, that is exactly where detailed scrutiny goes on. As well as in the EP. And each have a complicated lock on each other, it is much more sophisticated and effective control mechanism that you can possibly imagine, having started from the unevidenced belief that the Commission does what it likes. I do not expect to be able to move you from that position, but that is because it is what you want to believe, however much more complex the reality is.

I judge by what I see. I see an organisation that imposes austerity on Greece, and an unelected government on Italy. I see an organisation that seems indifferent to 40% youth unemployment in Spain so that it can prop up the Euro. I see an organisation that I have never (until now) had any opportunity to express an opinion about through the ballot box. I see an organisation that has imposed arbitrary targets on electricity generation that is leaving the UK very close to power cuts in times of high demand, and obliged to subsidise means of generation that (basically) don't work very well.

Jake - do you genuinely believe that the EU is, in practice, democratically accountable to EU citizens? I don't. I don't because of what I see in practice.

 

[Rhossydd]

I want to be subject to British laws voted on by a British Parliament, not foreign ones rubber stamped by a lap dog parliament here, or in Brussels.

The issue shouldn't be where the legislation is made, but if it's good legislation.
There's a lot of disabled people that haven't been too happy lately about the laws made in the UK by a British elected government.

 

[Inoffthered]

Which of us voted to impose severe austerity on Greece?

Largely self-inflicted after they borrowed way beyond their ability to repay.
.[/quote]

Not so, Greece had been understating its fiscal deficits for years and should never have been allowed into the Euro zone thereby chaining its economy into a monetary system geared up to the interests of France and Germany.
In the old days Greece could have managed its way out of its difficulties by changing its interest rates and devaluing the drachma. That would have been a boost to trade and its tourist industry.

The debts to which you refer were imposed on Greece to allow it to repay other debts and interest a significant amount of which was owed to Germany. Now most of Greece's debt is held by the IMF, and the European central bank, to which we are major contributors. So when Remainiacs say we are insulated from directly supporting the Eurozone, in some respects they are right but of course we contribute indirectly through the IMF and the ECB.

 

[RobinBHM]

Which of us voted to impose severe austerity on Greece?

Largely self-inflicted after they borrowed way beyond their ability to repay.

Not so, Greece had been understating its fiscal deficits for years and should never have been allowed into the Euro zone thereby chaining its economy into a monetary system geared up to the interests of France and Germany.
In the old days Greece could have managed its way out of its difficulties by changing its interest rates and devaluing the drachma. That would have been a boost to trade and its tourist industry.

The debts to which you refer were imposed on Greece to allow it to repay other debts and interest a significant amount of which was owed to Germany. Now most of Greece's debt is held by the IMF, and the European central bank, to which we are major contributors. So when Remainiacs say we are insulated from directly supporting the Eurozone, in some respects they are right but of course we contribute indirectly through the IMF and the ECB.

When I used to visit the Greek islands back in the Drachma days, holidays were very reasonable, drinks and meals also. Since the Euro Greek holidays are more expensive, especially cost of eating out. My understanding from Taverna and hotel owners is that tourism there is generally down and their standard of living has not increased since joining the Euro zone. In a rather naive way Ive always wondered whether it has been a benefit for Greece or not (I do believe their per capita GDP has climbed since euro membership so maybe it has).

Greece certainly isnt feeling the benefit at the moment whatever view is taken.

 

[Jake]

Greece had been understating its fiscal deficits for years and should never have been allowed into the Euro zone thereby chaining its economy into a monetary system geared up to the interests of France and Germany.

That's true.

In the old days Greece could have managed its way out of its difficulties by changing its interest rates and devaluing the drachma. That would have been a boost to trade and its tourist industry.

And just by defaulting on its creditors.

The debts to which you refer were imposed on Greece to allow it to repay other debts and interest a significant amount of which was owed to Germany. Now most of Greece's debt is held by the IMF, and the European central bank, to which we are major contributors. So when Remainiacs say we are insulated from directly supporting the Eurozone, in some respects they are right but of course we contribute indirectly through the IMF and the ECB.

The IMF is always repaid so no need to worry there. We are not exposed via the ECB for the Treaty reasons set out in previous posts.

At some point Germany is going to have to accept that all the moral hazard arguments in the world aren't going to save the Euro-system from taking losses (has already in the form of longer payment terms, lower rates etc).

But anyway, we are not part of the Euro-system, have an exemption from any expectation of joining it, and no exposure to the costs of it.

 

[Rhossydd]

But anyway, we are not part of the Euro-system, have an exemption from any expectation of joining it, and no exposure to the costs of it.

Unless we're stupid enough to vote out, it all goes wrong and we have to go back, cap in hand, to the EU to try and rejoin.

 

[Jake]

True

 

[Rhossydd]

'Respected' by whom?

The New York Times is hardly gutter press like The Sun.
Just to pick some quotes from it's Wikipedia entry;
"The New York Times has won 117 Pulitzer Prizes, more than any other newspaper."
"In a December 19, 2012, column published in the left-leaning The Huffington Post, economics professor and former bank regulator William K. Black characterized The New York Times as being "far right ... on financial issues" "

I found the following paragraph interesting and raises a point I haven't heard mentioned before;
"It is certain that Brexit would do gross damage to both Europe and America. For the United States, it would mean the failure of many years of diplomacy. Britain would become at once less useful as an ally and less predictable. Washington would turn increasingly from London to Berlin."