Who is in and who is out?

[RogerS]

You're on a roll, Phil!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Yes. https://dotsub.com/view/229ca3b5-e82f-4 ... 6ad4af9cb2
a little Sir Humphrey. :lol:

 

[BearTricks]

I've just found out that a job opportunity I'm waiting to hear back from is funded, in part, using EU money. I suspect I'll probably be waiting until some point between the 23rd and the interview date to hear from anyone. I wont be surprised if they put it on hold for the forseeable future while they weigh up their options.

 

[stuartpaul]

I've just found out that a job opportunity I'm waiting to hear back from is funded, in part, using EU money. I suspect I'll probably be waiting until some point between the 23rd and the interview date to hear from anyone. I wont be surprised if they put it on hold for the forseeable future while they weigh up their options.

Nah, - you'll be fine. The leavers are promising to continue funding all EU funded projects. Together with £100 million a week for the NHS it'll all be wonderful.

If only they could get the number on the side of the bus right ..........

 

[Inoffthered]

Its getting to the stage when I almost cannot watch any of the Exit debates.

The next time one of the Remainiacs bangs on about how the EU creates jobs, I wish someone would ask them how the following EU employment interventions helped to create jobs in the UK.

Cadbury, Factory move from Bristol to Poland, funded by the EU
Twinings , £10m EU grant to build a factory in Eastern Europe
Dyson, opened factory in Malaysia with an EU grant
Ford Transit production moved from Southampton to Turkey funded by...yes you've guessed it, the EU (€80 mill)
Hoover factory relocated from Merthyr to Czech republic funded by the EU
Jaguar Land Rover building new factory in Slovakia funded by EU
Peugot closed Raton factory and relocated to Slovakia
Texas Instruments Greenock factory relocated to Germany.
Also, the next time Camoron bangs on about Brexit resulting in a 6% drop in GDP, he should be asked to explain where this number comes from because an EU report produced to "celebrate " its achievements reckons that in 20 years it has added 2% to GDP.

Added to this the British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.

Funny how we couldn't do anything to help our steel industry but other EU countries dont seem to have the same problem.

It is truly ironic that a few months after cameron said that Junker was not fit fit to be EU president he has invited him to the UK next week to argue the cause for Remain.

To read some of Junker's more outrageous statements follow this link:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... tions.html

I draw your attention to his comment made during the Greek crisis "When it becomes serious, you have to lie."

So why is he coming, to lie or is his suitcase stuffed with postal votes?


Vote OUT

 

[Inoffthered]

If only they could get the number on the side of the bus right ..........

If only the Remainiacs would be honest about what is being held back for fear of affecting the referendum result

http://heatst.com/politics/everything-t ... sm_tw_post



The application of VAT on food will happen quickly because the EU needs the money .

 

[Flynnwood]

I am for leaving/vote out.

Time permitting, I will try to answer any *(logical) arguments against that.

* Including numbers.

P.S. Remember that the primary/underlying biological force is to reproduce.

 

[RobinBHM]

I have to say Ive learnt far more following this thread than any amount of reading elsewhere. Mostly because this thread has a diverse range of viewpoints and with quite a few posters with a considerable knowledge. It has certainly made me challenge my own belief.

To start, I thought immegration, economy, free market security etc were the issues.

Certainly the media and the political campaigners have used these things to instill fear. They are all important issues but for me the core issue is increasing growth of the european union - and larger means less and less efficient which will keep costing more with less and less control.

If we leave, it will create economic problems and a lot of hard work needed to drive through trade agreements. It wont be easy but I think Out is the way forward.

 

[Rhossydd]

Cadbury, Factory move from Bristol to Poland, funded by the EU
...
Texas Instruments Greenock factory relocated to Germany.

Might be worth considering that these incentives for multinationals to work in Europe won't stop if the UK leaves the EU.
However there will be no more EU money to assist the same companies to invest in the UK.

 

[themackay]

Its got to be out

 

[themackay]

Its got to be out

 

[Woodmonkey]

Someone posted this up on Facebook today, says it all really....

A good friend of mine came up with a great idea. If you don't have the time/inclination to find out all the facts about the EU referendum (I don't blame you) and are possibly unsure which way to vote, perhaps knowing how other notable people are thinking could help out.

Here are a few that strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU:

• Governor of the Bank of England
• International Monetary Fund
• Institute for Fiscal Studies
• Confederation of British Industry
• Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
• President of the United States of America
• Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
• President of China
• Prime Minister of India
• Prime Minister of Canada
• Prime Minister of Australia
• Prime Minister of Japan
• Prime Minister of New Zealand
• The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
• Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
• All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
• Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
• The Prime Minister of the UK
• The leader of the Labour Party
• The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
• The Leader of the Green Party
• The Leader of the Scottish National Party
• The leader of Plaid Cymru
• Leader of Sinn Fein
• Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
• The Secretary General of the TUC
• Unison
• National Union of Students
• National Union of Farmers
• Stephen Hawking
• Chief Executive of the NHS
• 300 of the most prominent international historians
• Director of Europol
• David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
• Former Directors of GCHQ
• Secretary General of Nato
• Church of England
• Church in Scotland
• Church in Wales
• Friends of the Earth
• Greenpeace
• Director General of the World Trade Organisation
• WWF
• World Bank
• OECD

Here are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU:

• Boris Johnson, who probably doesn’t really care either way, but knows he’ll become Prime Minister if the country votes to leave
• A former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions who carried out a brutal regime of cuts to benefits and essential support for the poorest in society as well as the disabled and sick
• That idiot that was Education Secretary and every single teacher in the country hated with a furious passion for the damage he was doing to the education system
• Leader of UKIP
• BNP
• Britain First
• Donald Trump
• Keith Chegwin
• David Icke

So, as I said, if you can’t be bothered to look into the real facts and implications of all this in/out stuff, just pick the list that you most trust and vote that way. It really couldn’t be more simple.

 

[Jake]

The next time one of the Remainiacs bangs on about how the EU creates jobs, I wish someone would ask them how the following EU employment interventions helped jobs in the UK.

Cadbury, Factory move from Bristol to Poland, funded by the EU
Twinings , £10m EU grant to build a factory in Eastern Europe
Dyson, opened factory in Malaysia with an EU grant
Ford Transit production moved from Southampton to Turkey funded by...yes you've guessed it, the EU (€80 mill)
Hoover factory relocated from Merthyr to Czech republic funded by the EU
Jaguar Land Rover building new factory in Slovakia funded by EU
Peugot closed Raton factory and relocated to Slovakia
Texas Instruments Greenock factory relocated to Germany.

I call this out as social media crap as I have seen it so many times in different places it seems to be influencing people who have not done any fact checking and take stuff they see on the interweb at face value. When I say below I cannot find any independent evidence, I mean all I can find given a reasonable online search is repeat copy/paste posts of this by people taking it at face value (or apparently doing so).

Cadbury: I could find no independent evidence of EU grant influence.

Twinings: the EU cancelled the EUR12m grant because MEPs raised concerns that AB Foods had planned to shift rather than add production. AB Foods denied this, but opened it anyway (presumably because tariff free access to EU and lower wages costs).

Dyson: No independent evidence, and does not make sense. This is how the Telegraph perceived this not so long after the wage-saving move of production out of Malmesbury:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3615244/Dyson-is-making-pots-of-money-for-Britain-by-going-to-Malaysia.html

Ford: not a grant, a loan from the EIB, and Transit production was 90% there anyway before the loan. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ge ... an-1415960 That was going one way only. Look forward to many more if Brexit.

Hoover: a move started by geniuses http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 71711.html . The Merthyr plant made washing machines and tumble driers http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... nt-2117878. The Candy company which purchased the wreckage of Hoover got an EIB loan for its Polish factory which builds refrigerators and freezers http://www.eib.org/projects/loans/2001/20010622.htm.

I hope it is understandable after wasting my time checking the (un)truth of this carp that I have not bothered with the last couple of lies.


####

It makes me very sad how very stupid and emotional social media is making our polity. I know that everyone thinks they know who they think they know and that they are trustworthy because agree so must be, BUT DUMB.

Excuse me for rag-losing a little, but there there is so much of this round robin copycat flimsy nonsense doing the rounds and it is toxic. The demos decides but should not be misled (on either side, remain are not innocents but in my view leave are so much worse in terms of just not caring at all about known truths rather than laying on unknown predictions too thick)

 

[Inoffthered]

Cadbury, Factory move from Bristol to Poland, funded by the EU
...
Texas Instruments Greenock factory relocated to Germany.

Might be worth considering that these incentives for multinationals to work in Europe won't stop if the UK leaves the EU.
However there will be no more EU money to assist the same companies to invest in the UK.

Remind me, when was the last major EU funded business set up in the UK?

There is another aspect to this. If you think about the evolution of industry in this country, the agrarian revolution changed the way food was grown thereby releasing labour that had been working in the fields to work in factories as the industrial revolution developed. Our economy has moved into the next "knowledge based" phase.
The days when millions of people were needed to work in textile mills, foundries and factories have gone.
Low production costs around the globe mean that a developed economy cannot compete on low value production because of our higher labour costs. We compete now not on price but by innovation. Dyson may have moved manufacturing to low labour cost area but its design and product development brains are here.

At a time when we need to be educating our people to the highest possible standards to equip them for the 21st century, we are forced into a position whereby the un-restricted free movement of labour has lead to an influx of unskilled workers for whom our minimum wage represents a good deal for the unemployed in Greece, Spain and Portugal and a major attraction for even skilled workers from Poland, Bulgaria etc where they can earn as much doing a manual job as they could get as teachers and other professionals in their own country.

I know some Remainiacs will quote figures of the contribution made by immigrant workers, but these claims are based on a major deception. The stats quoted generally compare the aggregate tax and NI paid by the workers with the benefits paid out. Nowhere do these figures take account of the social infrastructure costs.

If the population increases by 300,000 per year then to maintain public services at a constant level, it would be necessary to build additional hospitals, doctors surgeries, dentists, schools, roads etc as well as additional housing stock. If the social infrastructure does not keep pace with population growth there will inevitably be increased waiting lists, longer waits in A&E as people who cannot get a doctor have no alternative for their medical needs. These costs are not included in the glib "migrant labour make a positive contribution" statements.

Of course, readily available cheap labour is perfect for big business to tap into. People coming from Eastern Europe are quite happy to hot bed in multiple occupancy caravans/houses and still save money. To argue that this does not depress wages is one of the biggest lies perpetuated by the Remainiacs.

I doubt the Mike Ashleys of this world struggle to get their kids into the local comp and they wont be in classes where English is not spoken by the majority of attendees. I bet Cameron and Corbyn have never had to wait a week for an appointment at their doctors, I bet their kids will never have to compete for a job on building site with someone who will work for £30 per day, but they will dress this up as being essential for the country. Madness.

I am not against immigration, on the contrary, immigration can be an important driver of growth BUT it has to be of the right people for the right jobs. If we need doctors, nurses , care workers then I dont care where they come from if there is a job for them. I cannot see the point in increasing the population by 300k unskilled people every year with the attendant infrastructure and social costs.

I see Osbourn is now threatening to put taxes up if we vote leave. (He is probably keeping the plague of locusts and boils till next week). It's nonsense of course and yet another pathetic example of project fear.

Keep the faith, have confidence and dont sell out to a bunch of unelected Eurocrats. Vote Leave

 

[rafezetter]

Another from the Sunday Times -
"A Syrian refugee who recently arrived in Britain under David Cameron’s high-profile resettlement programme has been charged with sexually assaulting a 14-year-old girl.
Plenty more to come ... and even more if we stay in.

If this had been a native white Newcastle man (unlikely to make national news) would you be advocating banning all Tyne and Wear residents from crossing the boarder?

Given one of your main arguments is that anyone with a 'vested interest' cannot have a valid opinion I'm disappointed you read the UK press at all.

It's the underlying mentality that's the issue; Newcastle men (at least as far as I'm, aware) don't have a long history of regarding all women as property to be done with as they see fit; to be used as a bartering tool (often as young as 11), offered up like cattle, to make links with wealthy or otherwise influential men so their fathers can increase their social and economic standing, or, act as though it's their "male right" to grope and harass women in a nightclub - or anywhere else.

Unless you have been under a rock for the last ten plus years you should be fully aware a large portion of the muslim community in the middle east (and some here in the UK too) still practise this on a daily basis. There has been news item after news item, both overseas AND within the UK highlighting such practices.

Of course it happens in india and other places too, but for some reason I have yet to fathom, when the middle eastern muslims with this sort of mentality come to a european country, even though they must be under no illusion that it's illegal, they do it anyway without regard for the women or laws; one might be moved to surmise it's deliberate in open defiance.

And before you say "one bad apple" refer back to how many muslim men were involved - 54 - easily enough that they could have self policed such behaviour within their group(s), yet they did not, a fact which in itself speaks volumes.

So your argument that this is an unfairly biased news item is invalid, and you actually seem to want to DEFEND these people.

As for your comment about "vigilante's" - I was a "vigilante" once, at least according to some of a certain mindset - I used to be one of the Guardian Angels than rode the london underground in the early 90's and I can tell you, on the thankfully few occasions we had to get involved we were never once, NEVER, considered or accused of being a threat to law abiding people - not even by the attending police, and more than a few were openly thankful for our presence, public AND police. Sometimes it takes a gang of men, who are NOT automatically bound like the police, to ward off a gang of men. It's little different to war, and I can say with full conviction if you think that's overstating it, you should have spent time in Londons inner city after dark, before CCTV was everywhere and everyone had a mobile phone that can record images instantly, when women and elderly refused to get into a train carriage with a group of male youths after closing time.

I'm also willing to bet that none of the muslims involved in that incident will ever try that again during their time in Russia - or possibly anywhere else.

 

[RogerS]

Woodmonkey...I would suggest that that list has been chosen by David Cameron as it is so clearly skewed.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

"However there will be no more EU money to assist the same companies to invest in the UK."
While they're subsidising them to move to continental Europe it'll make no difference, will it?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Cracking bit of EU logic, mind. Let's milk them for all they're worth and do our best to stop them making money at the same time. :? :lol:

 

[RobinBHM]

Cadbury, Factory move from Bristol to Poland, funded by the EU
...
Texas Instruments Greenock factory relocated to Germany.

Might be worth considering that these incentives for multinationals to work in Europe won't stop if the UK leaves the EU.
However there will be no more EU money to assist the same companies to invest in the UK.

Is it eu money? It could be argued it is UK money that the eu has chosen to invest in the uk, without us choosing. Its a bit like me giving £5 to somebody and saying keep some of it, then buy something for me with the rest.

 

[Rhossydd]

Is it eu money? It could be argued it is UK money that the eu has chosen to invest in the uk, without us choosing. Its a bit like me giving £5 to somebody and saying keep some of it, then buy something for me with the rest.

How you choose to misinterpret the information is up to you.
What I was pointing out is that if we're stupid enough to leave the EU there will still be big subsidies available for the multi-nationals to move into mainland Europe from the EU and many will. Attracting new inward investment into the UK will cost UK tax payers much more and be less attractive to the potential investors outside the EU.

The only people saying it won't be a financial nightmare are Brexiters promising things they can't deliver and saying we have to make optimistic projections. It's too much like buying a lottery ticket, you might just win, but the overwhelming probability is that you will lose.