Who is in and who is out?

[Cheshirechappie]

every single one of them belonged to an organisation or worked for company that was known to get money (in some cases a lot of money) from the EU.

Exactly, almost everyone in the UK gets some benefit from the EU! Living in Cornwall you should know that better than most. The EU pump billions into deprived rural areas in development aid.

Where does the EU get it's money from?

There's been a lot of huffing and puffing about the UK's contribution to the EU, but some sort of agreement seems to settling at about £18bn per annum contributions, of which about £9bn is either rebated or comes back in the form of various grants. Thus, the EU money going to Cornwall could be said to come from the UK Treasury via a rather tortuous route.

There are only three real contributors to the EU coffers - Germany, the UK and the Netherlands. Everybody else takes out rather than putting in - indeed, some do very well out of it - French agriculture, for example.

 

[RobinBHM]

every single one of them belonged to an organisation or worked for company that was known to get money (in some cases a lot of money) from the EU.

Exactly, almost everyone in the UK gets some benefit from the EU! Living in Cornwall you should know that better than most. The EU pump billions into deprived rural areas in development aid.

Yes but that's money we've paid to the EU originally. I don't see how that can be a relevant argument, they aren't giving us money.

What they are doing is taking some money, keeping a huge amount on their own expensive administration then giving some back in a way of their choosing.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

And so the debate rumbles on. And on. And on. Etc etc etc ad infinitum.

I'm still undecided and to be honest not sure I'll ever have enough 'facts' to be sure what's best - for the UK, its constituent parts and or Europe as a whole.

I think that whatever happens I'm going to keep going out to my shed and half finishing projects just like before.

I think that because we're dealing with what might happen in the future, with the UK either in or out of the EU, there are no facts. There are plenty of opinions, forecasts (any of which may or may not be close to accurate), and quite a few with vested interests plugging their own position.

For me, it comes down to a choice of what sort of government is preferable. We can either have the nation's decision-makers elected by us ordinary people, or we can be governed by people we don't elect and can't hold to account through the ballot box. It may be that it doesn't make much difference in the short term, but in the long term - the lifetimes of our children and grandchildren - it could make a huge difference. History shows that nations with democratically-elected governments (the USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand for example) tend to more stable, more peaceful and more prosperous in the long run than those governed by people not accountable through the ballot box.

Thus, for me, it's a Leave vote.

 

[Rhossydd]

we pay dearly enough for it.

Do we ? Just how much do YOU actually pay ?

Your tax statement will tell you how much of your income tax and NI goes to the EU, assuming you pay income tax at all.
The other way you pay into the EU is via VAT. So anything with full rate VAT about 0.06% of the total price including VAT goes to the EU.
VAT on lower rate items like domestic fuel will be commensurately smaller, similarly insurance tax, air duty etc.
You'll also contribute via other 0.37% of other duties, eg on car fuel, diesel, alcohol, tobacco etc.

There are other taxes like Capital gains tax, corporation tax that also indirectly deliver to the EU, but I'd guess you won't be paying those.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

You have no idea what I do or don't pay. If the 0.06% (of the total price) we pay is nearly a fifth of the EU's total income from VAT there must be far more Countries in the EU than we knew - or a lot of Countries paying no VAT.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

The net cost of the EU is £10bn pa equivalent to about £160 per head on average. It represents approx 0.6% of GDP.

It would be wrong to describe this as completely trivial - but neither is it of any real consequence in an economic sense - in context:

- less than most would save simply by changing energy or telecoms/broadband or insurance provider
- 1/3rd of normal annual economic growth: economic impact is probably far more important than contribution saved
- about 1.2% of total public spending: this is not remotely a game changer - although it could be targeted
- probably less than most on this forum spend on consumables for our chosen hobby/trade

It is entirely reasonable to have views on democracy, sovereignty, economy, security etc, but the cost of membership is just a distraction.

 

[clk230]

But would you let someone else tell you how you have to spend your £160 on consumables for your hobby ?

 

[MIGNAL]

Meanwhile Hitachi have stated it will have to rethink it's UK future investment if Brexit were to happen.

 

[RogerS]

Meanwhile Hitachi have stated it will have to rethink it's UK future investment if Brexit were to happen.

Another example of FUD.

 

[Rhossydd]

You have no idea what I do or don't pay.

Maybe this exactly the sort fact you need to know before making wild comments like that you 'paid dearly' for membership to the EU, but haven't a clue how much it actually cost you.

It also sounds like you don't understand what VAT fundamentally is or where the revenue it collects goes to. Clue: It doesn't all go to the EU.

 

[Rhossydd]

Another example of FUD.

It's exactly FUD that is causing companies to wait on making investment decisions in the UK. It's not just Hitachi either.
If the country is foolhardy enough to vote to leave, it will stall most major inward investment into the UK until the situation is very much clearer with respect to what trade deals we'll have. That will take many years to establish and that failure to invest will give the UK economy major problems, which trickles down to hurting the people fast, but even if the most optimistic brexit forecast is correct the short term loss will take a decade or two to recover, if ever.

 

[MIGNAL]

Meanwhile Hitachi have stated it will have to rethink it's UK future investment if Brexit were to happen.

Another example of FUD.

Yes, along with the Japanese PM. The numbers are mounting.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Another example of FUD.

It's exactly FUD that is causing companies to wait on making investment decisions in the UK. It's not just Hitachi either.
If the country is foolhardy enough to vote to leave, it will stall most major inward investment into the UK until the situation is very much clearer with respect to what trade deals we'll have. That will take many years to establish and that failure to invest will give the UK economy major problems, which trickles down to hurting the people fast, but even if the most optimistic brexit forecast is correct the short term loss will take a decade or two to recover, if ever.

Pretty well exactly the same arguments were made (by pretty well exactly the same institutions and corporations) when we dropped out of the Exchange Rate Mechanism, and again when we didn't join the Euro. Since those events, the UK's economy has done better than the Eurozone's.

Nobody can foretell the future, but the past is sometimes a useful guide.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

You have no idea what I do or don't pay.

Maybe this exactly the sort fact you need to know before making wild comments like that you 'paid dearly' for membership to the EU, but haven't a clue how much it actually cost you.

It also sounds like you don't understand what VAT fundamentally is or where the revenue it collects goes to. Clue: It doesn't all go to the EU.

For one, I said "we" not "I", for two, what it costs me is nothing to do with you, and three -
"Over the seven years from 2007-13, the UK paid over £15.4 billion in VAT contributions
to the EU, an average of £2.2 billion a year. This amounts to just under 18 per cent of
the EU’s annual VAT revenue, despite the UK population being only 13 per cent of the
EU whole.1
 The VAT contribution per capita in the UK is £246 in total in 2007-13. This is £78 more
than the average for the EU population.
 The Office for Budget Responsibility has forecast that the UK’s VAT contributions to
the EU budget will rise by 32 per cent from 2013-14 to 2019-20."

As 18% is nearly a fifth and the other figure was supplied by you, and I suppose we must make allowances for Countries like Greece, where they pick and choose whether to pay VAT or not. Why was it a wild comment when it is common knowledge how much this inefficient, corrupt political union costs us?

 

[Rhossydd]

what it costs me is nothing to do with you,

If you want your views and opinions to be taken seriously, demonstrating that you understand how the issue resolves down to a personal level would give you more credibility.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I don't really mind whether you take my views and opinions seriously or not - given that I always ignore yours.

 

[stuartpaul]

It would be nice if the thread didn't get locked due to a failure to be civil to each other and respect points of view even if we don't agree?

 

[mind_the_goat]

Just as a 'sideways' look at all of this.... does anyone remember the Y2K debacle.?
Can you remember what happened come midnight on December 31st 1999...?? NOTHING....!! everything carried on as normal.

Mainly because people were made aware of the problems and possibilities and acted to prevent them happening.

Yes, NikNak, you explained why 'nothing' happened in your post. Many people, myself included, spent a lot of time fixing it. There was a known problem which was understood and it could be tested and fixed, similar to a recall on a car. No comparison to this discussion as there is no tangible thing that can be fixed to give a known result.

 

[mind_the_goat]

But would you let someone else tell you how you have to spend your £160 on consumables for your hobby ?

It would be nice if everyone got to choose where al their taxes were spent, but the country would be a complete mess if we could. You are certainly not going to get that £160 back in your pocket and, in my view, will likely have less to spend your hobby if we leave.

 

[Jacob]

It would be nice if the thread didn't get locked due to a failure to be civil to each other and respect points of view even if we don't agree?

Don't want to make it worse but I have to say - having been out canvassing and on a stall giving out info - the outers are by and large an angry bunch. Many grievances real or imaginary which leads them to think change of any sort could be an improvement. There's a bit of logic in this of course, but generally, decisions are better made with a cool head!

PS also have to say - this thread has been very interesting and has made me think (and others too I would hope!)