Who is in and who is out?

[Cheshirechappie]

If I vote out how much duty will I have to pay on my materials? How much duty will be levied on my products sold to other EU countries? Currently it's zero. To the US it's around 7% + the form filling.

For two years, no change to current arrangements. After that, depends who you want to believe, but since the UK is one of the EU's biggest customers, they have a vested interest in doing a mutually agreeable deal. Either that, or the UK remains a member of the European Free Trade Area, in which case, no change in perpetuity.

 

[Rhossydd]

After that, depends who you want to believe, but since the UK is one of the EU's biggest customers, they have a vested interest in doing a mutually agreeable deal.

Except that there's sweet FA chance of any future deal being as good. There's been a lot of talk of punitive deals to discourage any further break up.

No one knows and no one has a plan.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

After that, depends who you want to believe, but since the UK is one of the EU's biggest customers, they have a vested interest in doing a mutually agreeable deal.

Except that there's sweet FA chance of any future deal being as good. There's been a lot of talk of punitive deals to discourage any further break up.

No one knows and no one has a plan.

Well, if the UK electorate vote to leave, they'll have to come up with one, won't they?

How about 10% tariff on BMW's coming into the UK? How's that sound, Germany?

 

[MIGNAL]

You mean a trade war?
No thanks. Even if it lasted just 6 months it might be long enough for me to go under.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

You mean a trade war?
No thanks. Even if it lasted just 6 months it might be long enough for me to go under.

Precisely - a trade war is in nobody's interests. Thus, it's more likely that common sense would prevail, and a way would be found to maintain current arrangements.

No guarantee of that of course - the future is unknown. In or out.

 

[Jacob]

....... I'm afraid I must disagree.

The Westminster system has evolved over several centuries. ......

We are not getting rid of or changing the Westminster system.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

....... I'm afraid I must disagree.

The Westminster system has evolved over several centuries. ......

We are not getting rid of or changing the Westminster system.

If we stay in, we are. We're agreeing to give EU legislation primacy over Westminster legislation; eventually, as more and more 'competencies' (a misnomer if ever there was one!) transfer to Brussels, Westminster will end up have about as much power and authority as a parish council, responsible only for clearing up dog-mess and trimming roadside verges. Every aspect of your life - taxation, defence, health, education, you name it - will be decided in Brussels. That what the super-state is about, and it's happening already. They already decide such things as energy and environmental policy, for example.

 

[MIGNAL]

You mean a trade war?
No thanks. Even if it lasted just 6 months it might be long enough for me to go under.

Precisely - a trade war is in nobody's interests. Thus, it's more likely that common sense would prevail, and a way would be found to maintain current arrangements.

No guarantee of that of course - the future is unknown. In or out.

No, no guarantees. I'll stay with the certainty thanks. It's my living that might be at stake.

 

[Jacob]

..... They already decide such things as energy and environmental policy, for example.

But "we" are part of this group.
There isn't a "they" - it's "we" (together with member states) deciding such things as energy and environmental policy.
Some things are better agreed in the wider world, which is why we joined and need to stay in the EU.
Some things are better decided locally, and will continue so to be.

 

[Rhossydd]

They already decide such things as energy and environmental policy, for example.

A good thing that is too. UK governments have been making a hash of it here in recent years.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

You mean a trade war?
No thanks. Even if it lasted just 6 months it might be long enough for me to go under.

Precisely - a trade war is in nobody's interests. Thus, it's more likely that common sense would prevail, and a way would be found to maintain current arrangements.

No guarantee of that of course - the future is unknown. In or out.

No, no guarantees. I'll stay with the certainty thanks. It's my living that might be at stake.

The best comments were from one of Obama's advisors - she maintained it wouldn't make more than a % or two of difference either way to GDP no matter what and that would take years rather than months.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

They already decide such things as energy and environmental policy, for example.

A good thing that is too. UK governments have been making a hash of it here in recent years.

Making a hash of it BECAUSE it has to comply with EU directives. Like closing down coal-fired stations (that actually generate quite a lot of electricity) and replacing them with wind farms (that frequently don't, and have to be heavily subsidised).

 

[Jacob]

They already decide such things as energy and environmental policy, for example.

A good thing that is too. UK governments have been making a hash of it here in recent years.

Making a hash of it BECAUSE it has to comply with EU directives. Like closing down coal-fired stations (that actually generate quite a lot of electricity) and replacing them with wind farms (that frequently don't, and have to be heavily subsidised).

That's because there's this thing going on called "climate change" which you seem to be unaware of.
There's an urgent need to stop using all fossil fuels and yes energy will be expensive.
This is a global problem not just EU, but common action via EU is going to be much more effective than nation by nation initiatives.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

That's because there's this thing going on called "climate change" - which has been happening for billions of years. Of course we may exaggerate it - but there is not one iota of proof that we cause it. In any case all we do is close our industries down because of exorbitant energy costs then export the manufacturing to China - which hasn't exactly been top notch at controlling pollution, has it?

 

[Jacob]

That's because there's this thing going on called "climate change" - which has been happening for billions of years. Of course we may exaggerate it - but there is not one iota of proof that we cause it. In any case all we do is close our industries down because of exorbitant energy costs then export the manufacturing to China - which hasn't exactly been top notch at controlling pollution, has it?

:lol: There yer go then: euro scepticism, climate change scepticism, I knew it!
Do you also believe in astrology, creationism, homeopathic medicine, faked moon landings, etc etc.
I ask because these things often seem to go together in some people's minds.

https://robertscribbler.com/

TBH I thought climate change sceptics had just about died out as the evidence mounts ever faster. There is masses of proof that we are causing it and there is still a remote chance that we could change it.

 

[Rhyolith]

That's because there's this thing going on called "climate change" - which has been happening for billions of years. Of course we may exaggerate it - but there is not one iota of proof that we cause it. In any case all we do is close our industries down because of exorbitant energy costs then export the manufacturing to China - which hasn't exactly been top notch at controlling pollution, has it?

The climate has been changing for billions of years, up and down to considerably higher temperature extremes than today (or the worst climate change predictions). The difference is that its always happend over hundreads of throusands to Millions of years in the past, not a couple of hundred like in the last 2 centuries.

Is there proof? Well there is proof that the temperature us rising globally and that this is happening way faster than in any other point in Earth's history. It is a well established scientific knowledge that CO2 has a green house effect. So the temperature has defintly been rising, and that rising marries up precisly to a period when we have been producing excesive quanities of a gas known to cause warming via the greenhous effect... thats certainly an aweful coincidence!

Climate change is real and a problem. It requires a unified solution from ALL the worlds industrialised countries. Though I do not think the EU will solve this by any manner if means, we will certainly have more of a impact in it and with it, than on our own... not to mention Westminster does not seem to even have a basic understanding or willness to deal with enviromental problems.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Many of the CO2 spikes in the past have been larger than recent ones and happened with no human interference at all. Of course it makes sense to cut pollution where possible, but forcing us to build wind farms and limiting the power of our vacuum cleaners is not the way. The only perpetual, guaranteed source of energy we have is the one that is ignored most often - usually because it is expensive - is tidal. There were plans to use the Severnbore, but they were turned down apparently because it would affect bird life. The only reason for the proliferation of windmills is that very rich people get richer from them - precious little to with any efficiency or cost effectiveness.

 

[Jacob]

Many of the CO2 spikes in the past have been larger than recent ones and happened with no human interference at all.

Yes but we are not talking about those spikes we are looking at the current one.

....The only perpetual, guaranteed source of energy we have is the one that is ignored most often - usually because it is expensive - is tidal. ....

Tidal energy isn't ignored at all. It's well established and in use in various places - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rance_Tidal_Power_Station and is been researched all over the place, from huge schemes to tiny archimedean screw devices to drop in rivers. Water power is ancient and developing still but is very site specific.
There is also solar energy, wind, biomass, and the reverse of these is energy demand reduction - hence the vacuum cleaner and a 1000 other similar little moves, and insulation.
Cost of wind power is high but falling rapidly

 

[Phil Pascoe]

It is largely ignored, otherwise we'd be surrounded by tidal power stations (that link is to one in France - I'm talking about this Country) Yes, water power is ancient - but tidal power isn't. I did say dependable - which counts out sunshine and wind. If wind power were free we'd still have to run 100% back up for when the wind dropped (in Cornwall they are very often static - either because there is not enough wind, or more often because there's too much. I believe the claims for imported Canadian biomass to be carbon efficient are dubious. As said before - when the EU stops moving monthly I'll think about the size of my hoover. Come to that I'll even start to worry about the standby on the TV if the County Council starts turning lights off in county hall at night.

 

[Jacob]

It is largely ignored, otherwise we'd be surrounded by tidal power stations (that link is to one in France - I'm talking about this Country) Yes, water power is ancient - but tidal power isn't.

Tidal power is ancient too. There have been water mills set up on estuaries right back to the dark ages

I did say dependable - which counts out sunshine and wind. If wind power were free we'd still have to run 100% back up for when the wind dropped

Tides turn from full power one way to zero and full power the other, every 12 1/2 hours, and vary from springs to neaps monthly. So you get the same continuity problem. Basically all sources are needed for continuity

.....I believe the claims for imported Canadian biomass to be carbon efficient are dubious.

Not if cut from farmed sustainable forest

As said before - when the EU stops moving monthly I'll think about the size of my hoover.

Don't worry they aren't going to stop you using the one you've got - but if it's a whopper you might not be able to replace it.

Come to that I'll even start to worry about the standby on the TV if the County Council starts turning lights off in county hall at night.

Tell em! Become a good environmentalist!