THE FOURTH OF JULY

[deema]

If you go rock climbing then you're doing it voluntarily (because you enjoy doing it). If you're getting on a small boat because you believe (rightly or wrongly) it's your only chance of a decent life then it's hardly a voluntary action.

Ironically, were we still an EU member then we could drop people back off in France, but now we can't. We (as in, this government) have closed almost all routes for people applying for legal asylum; inevitably meaning we get an increase in desperate people trying to enter illegally. Essentially, the very people who make the most noise about "the immigration problem" are also the people who have supported and/or put in place the very system that's caused the current problems.

Hit the nail on the head. They have sought asylum around Europe, been rejected and then come to the UK to get ‘a better life,’ not fleeing for their life, economic migrants.

If you feel economic migration is fair, then vote for the Green Party. Their policy is to have no borders, and allow free unrestricted migration from anywhere to anywhere. There are only 280 million migrants looking for a better life. Try getting social housing, doctors appointment if they all have free access to the UK!!
https://worldmigrationreport.iom.in...bal estimate is,cent of the global population.

 

[Jacob]

Let them fall / drown. It’s a choice they made. ...

Sounds like a choice you would make - what about shooting them first to put them out of their misery?
If you were in a passing boat would you refuse to save someone from drowning if you thought they were immigrants?
Basically you are proposing to kill people you don't want around. Where would you draw the line?
@Yorkieguy has fantasies about the "obese, had tattoos, and were fiddling with mobile phones. Some were still in pyjamas and slippers." Line them up too?

 

[Jacob]

Hit the nail on the head. They have sought asylum around Europe, been rejected and then come to the UK to get ‘a better life,’ not fleeing for their life, economic migrants.

If you feel economic migration is fair, then vote for the Green Party.

am doing

Their policy is to have no borders, and allow free unrestricted migration from anywhere to anywhere. There are only 280 million migrants looking for a better life. Try getting social housing, doctors appointment if they all have free access to the UK!!

They don't "all" come here and they don't have free access - there is a procedure to go through. Have you noticed how many workers in hospitals, dentistry, after care, etc are immigrants? Thank god they are here! They are out there building houses too, and in all walks of life at every level, making valuable contributions to life of all of us.

https://worldmigrationreport.iom.int/wmr-2022-interactive/#:~:text=The current global estimate is,cent of the global population.

Economic migrants are doing what Norman Tebbitt termed "getting on their bikes" (boats in many cases!) which surely is a highly commendable thing to do.
In fact migrants in general are highly motivated and have much to offer, that is why they come. They don't go to places where there is little chance of work.
More go to other EU states than UK but tend have personal/family/language for coming here.
Good luck to the poor sods, they have to face some right a***oles if they come here!

 

[sploo]

Hit the nail on the head. They have sought asylum around Europe, been rejected and then come to the UK to get ‘a better life,’ not fleeing for their life, economic migrants.

But are they economic migrants, or people genuinely fleeing because they have reason to feel unsafe? I don't know. And likely neither does anyone else; as we've closed off the legal routes for people to apply.

If you feel economic migration is fair, then vote for the Green Party. Their policy is to have no borders, and allow free unrestricted migration from anywhere to anywhere. There are only 280 million migrants looking for a better life. Try getting social housing, doctors appointment if they all have free access to the UK!!
https://worldmigrationreport.iom.int/wmr-2022-interactive/#:~:text=The current global estimate is,cent of the global population.

Nearly 20% of NHS staff are not British (i.e. we benefit from that migration). Farmers have complained of struggles getting seasonal (immigrant) staff since Brexit. Migration really isn't a bogeyman.

I don't believe anyone is advocating "free access to the UK"; but a working, properly funded, immigration system would allow people to apply legally, and we'd have the staff necessary to process such claims. There would always be illegal migration - but with reduced numbers the black market for people smuggling would become less profitable (and hopefully therefore less attractive).

It's a heck of a coincidence that the massive rise in small boat crossings (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:...ar_on_small_boats_via_the_English_Channel.svg) coincides with Brexit being "done", and under a Tory government who have underfunded the immigration service (https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/br...and-staffing-uk-immigration-and-asylum-system).

EDIT: typo (season -> seasonal)

 

[deema]

@sploo The Green Party has amounts their myriad of policies a very clear statement of intent to devolve all of the UK boarders.

If you’re fleeing from persecution from France, a socialist country, what hope do they have coming to Blighty? The suggestion that they are fleeing from persecution doesn’t hold water. In any case, they can move into any other EU country which borders with France if they don’t like it. There isn’t any argument that holds water that would suggest they need / have to risk their lives to cross the channel except if they have been rejected from every other country as asylum seekers and are indeed economic migrants.

I have nothing against controlled migration in line with the needs of the country. But we the people should decide what are needs are through our democratically elected representatives, not the ECHR.

As an aside, four years ago when my wife retired from running hospitals (she was called upon to sort out those that were failing) that there were actually a surplus of doctors. Many junior doctors could not find positions. So, no need for foreign imported doctors depleting the resources of say Africa that has a chronic shortage. That’s a myth.

 

[Spectric]

Except each raised their own armies and conflict between the ‘kingdoms’ was common.

The first of the new kingdoms is London, not a walled city but one with a giant ring road and then you might see the midlands, Manchester and then Newcastle each being self governed, the state we have got into means anything is possible but I still bet the very first breakaway will be Scotland.

In the same vein, if you know your not going to be rescued and set off in a small boat from a safe stable country called France where your not persecuted or fleeing for your life then like the rock climbing analogy if you drown that’s the risk you took.

The same is true of mountain rescue, they are volunteers and having to work much harder due to the workload simply because people know that they are there and if they go for a hike in flip flops with no equipment or experience then mountain rescue are their safety net, no different to boat people who will take the chance knowing that there is a uk ferry service ready to save the day that welcomes them with open arms unlike many other countries.

 

[Jacob]

....


The same is true of mountain rescue, they are volunteers and having to work much harder due to the workload simply because people know that they are there and if they go for a hike in flip flops with no equipment or experience then mountain rescue are their safety net, no different to boat people who will take the chance knowing that there is a uk ferry service ready to save the day

Except you are ignoring the obvious fact that they are so desperate that they will risk it to the point of dying, unlike mountain walkers in flip flops. A fairly desperate comparison.

that welcomes them with open arms unlike many other countries.

Most countries are a good deal more civilised than todays England.

 

[Spectric]

Have you noticed how many workers in hospitals, dentistry, after care, etc are immigrants?

But these are the skilled workers we need who have not got here illegally on small boats but through legal migration routes, the reason the boat people choose this method is that they know they cannot get in via the legal routes because they have no claim to asylum. These are seeking their fortune at our expense and they know there are rich pickings to be had and also know that the chance of getting caught is very low because of our failing police forces, overcrowded prisons and the inability / lack of willpower to deport them.

 

[Jacob]

[.....

..... But we the people should decide what are needs are through our democratically elected representatives,

Like they have decided the needs of the homeless by doing nothing at all? They've even dropped the promise of ending no fault evictions, which is in humanitarian terms about as basic as the clearances of the highlands, but piece by piece rather than whole villages at a time.

not the ECHR.

Britain needs the ECHR more than ever. Every bit of intelligent advice they can get! Our democratically elected representatives have spent something like £500m on the Rwanda scheme. I believe there has been one migrant exported so far. They could instead have divided the money between say 5000 migrants= £100k each and told them to buzz off and not come back. Many would happily accept!

As an aside, four years ago when my wife retired from running hospitals (she was called upon to sort out those that were failing) that there were actually a surplus of doctors. Many junior doctors could not find positions.

That's because of budget cuts of course. All public services have been systematically underfunded and run down, for many years.

So, no need for foreign imported doctors depleting the resources of say Africa that has a chronic shortage. That’s a myth.

You obviously haven't spent much time in a hospital. More than 1 in 5 are immigrants, at all levels from cleaners to top surgeons. If they were not there the situation would be even more desperate than it already is.

 

[Jacob]

But these are the skilled workers we need who have not got here illegally on small boats

Many may well have

but through legal migration routes, the reason the boat people choose this method is that they know they cannot get in via the legal routes because they have no claim to asylum.

There are no legal routes for asylum seekers - that is the whole problem, you've got it!

These are seeking their fortune at our expense and they know there are rich pickings to be had

What, filling job vacancies? Doing the economy a favour? Increasing GDP?

and also know that the chance of getting caught is very low because of our failing police forces, overcrowded prisons and the inability / lack of willpower to deport them.

At least you agree that there is underfunding of public services!

PS why not check your facts instead of relying on the idle opinions of Farage and his zombie army of the unwoke?

 

[Chris152]

@sploo

As an aside, four years ago when my wife retired from running hospitals (she was called upon to sort out those that were failing) that there were actually a surplus of doctors. Many junior doctors could not find positions. So, no need for foreign imported doctors depleting the resources of say Africa that has a chronic shortage. That’s a myth.

The Bulletin (RCSE, published in 2020, four years ago) says the complete opposite:
https://publishing.rcseng.ac.uk/doi/full/10.1308/rcsbull.2020.78

'The UK has 2.8 doctors per 1,000 population, which puts it well below the European Union (EU) average (3.4/1,000) with only 4 countries in Europe having lower numbers per capita (Ireland, Slovenia, Romania and Poland).2 A report by the Royal College of Physicians in 2016 argued that ‘the UK did not currently train enough doctors to meet demand.’3 The report also pointed out that there were fewer medical students in 2016 than 2010 despite a large rise in the number of patients the NHS was treating per annum. There are a huge number of long-term vacancies, with the number of advertised medical (and dentistry) vacancy full time equivalent jobs for NHS England at 9,217 in September 2018.4

Three of the main areas of shortage are psychiatry, general practice and emergency medicine, although all specialties have been impacted. The Health Secretary announced in 2015 that 5,000 additional GP posts would be in place by 2020; the current situation is that numbers have fallen by 290 (a drop of 1%).5 There are several factors as to why this strategy has failed: medical school numbers, retention of doctors, both post-foundation years and in training, alongside many doctors retiring early.'

 

[deema]

@Chris152 like many things in this world, reports focus on what they want to highlight. So, and this is my last comment on the subject as it’s getting away from the thread, there are too many doctors, but there are sectors that are under staffed. These are the areas that are not ‘attractive’. Being a GP as an example or in A&E being two of them. Abuse, violence, difficult people (mothers with toddlers as an example), drunks and the dregs of society are not the ‘sexy’ side of medicine that anyone would normally gravitate towards.

 

[Jacob]

...... Abuse, violence, difficult people (mothers with toddlers as an example), drunks and the dregs of society are not the ‘sexy’ side of medicine that anyone would normally gravitate towards.

You are running down some very noble people, who not only recognise the need to deal with your list but will go further into dangerous area, even war zones such as Gaza.
I realise you don't know what the word "humanitarian" means but you are the loser by this.
When your time comes you may find doctors even willing to look after people like you!

 

[Spectric]

Can we please keep this on track and civil, we are all entitled to our opinions. We know many of us would make good politicians but are smart enough to know that woodworking is more productive and enjoyable so please discuss the in's and out's of the forthcoming election, keep it freindly and do not throw any insults at others as there are several weeks until the bell tolls.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

That legal immigration is the source of skilled folk who can contribute to society is undeniable. It is also completely unsustainable in the longer term.

No different economically to individuals who routinely spend more than is eared. Feasible for many years through re-mortgaging, running up credit cards debts etc - but ultimately untenable.

There are particular stress points for the UK:

• housebuilding is barely adequate to meet the rising population. It is only a greater supply of housing with will enable a reduction in prices and rents through normal market forces
• it stresses all other infrastructure - schools, hospitals, water, sewage etc etc
• ultimately those fit and talented folk grow old and need the support they originally provided decade earlier

No party AFAIK has a coherent strategic plan to address the issue, noting that a solution may be a decade in implementation.

"Illegal" immigration may be a function of several understandable pressures including family, language skills etc.

The actions of the French do not help - AIUI once an asylum application has been refused all support is withdrawn in very short order. I also understand that the behaviour of the police and officials is truly unpleasant at times.

Faced with the option of assisted return to their home country (understandably unattractive), life at the bottom of the social and financial pile in disgusting conditions, a channel crossing seem the best option.

Very few perish en-route - around 1 in a 1000. Even if the real risk is appreciated there will be a "can't happen to me" attitude - similar to those who choose to smoking or drive whist drunk.

Solutions - negotiating with Europe and a bigger better border force is an empty fantasy. Like the "war on drugs" over several decades has proven futile. Rwanda is equally flawed for different reasons - high cost and a very low probability for an individual asylum seeker of being sent there.

The problem (if it is a problem) will not go away of its own accord.

 

[sploo]

@sploo The Green Party has amounts their myriad of policies a very clear statement of intent to devolve all of the UK boarders.

It's a bit more nuanced that that... https://policy.greenparty.org.uk/policy/migration/

If you’re fleeing from persecution from France, a socialist country, what hope do they have coming to Blighty? The suggestion that they are fleeing from persecution doesn’t hold water. In any case, they can move into any other EU country which borders with France if they don’t like it. There isn’t any argument that holds water that would suggest they need / have to risk their lives to cross the channel except if they have been rejected from every other country as asylum seekers and are indeed economic migrants.

I have nothing against controlled migration in line with the needs of the country. But we the people should decide what are needs are through our democratically elected representatives, not the ECHR.

Many answers here:

https://www.oasiscardiff.org/blog/why-do-refugees-leave-france-for-the-uk
https://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/information/refugee-asylum-facts/understanding-channel-crossings/
https://www.redcross.org.uk/stories...um-seekers/5-reasons-people-cross-the-channel
https://www.eyes-on-europe.eu/what-...m-such-an-important-destination-for-migrants/

But in short: the UK is seen as safer... at least until they get here anyway.

I don't really understand the ECHR comment; they don't tell us what our needs are. They're such a massive thorn in the side of the UK though... I mean, look at the number of times the ECHR found against the UK in 2023...

As an aside, four years ago when my wife retired from running hospitals (she was called upon to sort out those that were failing) that there were actually a surplus of doctors. Many junior doctors could not find positions. So, no need for foreign imported doctors depleting the resources of say Africa that has a chronic shortage. That’s a myth.

That's one of those things that's technically correct, but misleading in the overall context. The career of a UK junior doctor takes you up to a point where you choose a speciality, and in order to train for that speciality you need to get a role at a hospital that has openings for that speciality (in the kind of timeframe where they will need more consultants in that speciality in the years to come). It's a very competitive process, and even if you do succeed you'll often have to move to another area (we had to move 200 miles when my wife got a role to train as a consultant).

Doctors (junior or consultant) constitute just 10% of the total NHS workforce.

 

[Yorkieguy]

Bring back slavery!
All work is "workfare" to varying degrees. But first meaningful jobs and proper wages need to be in place, not to mention affordable housing and mobility.
Can't be left to the free market.

The point I was trying to make, but seemingly failing, is that no-one is entitled to ‘summat for nowt’. Rather too many people (it seems to me), seem to wholly blame their predicament on the state, taking no personal responsibility to try to lift themselves above their station in life. They are supported, and expect to be in perpetuity, by a system into which they've never paid a penny piece.

It puzzles me how rather too many people can go through the educations system, and end up functionality illiterate and innumerate as ‘NEETS’ - not in Education, Employment or Training. Not the fault of the government, the teachers, but they and their parents. Others, from similar backgrounds find work and pay taxes to support their feckless and indolent peers. Or so it seems to me.

But I should know better than to voice my options in a thread in which the underlying theme is ‘ain’t in awful?’

Will the General Election presage a ‘winter of discontent’ I wonder?

 

[Jake]

the reason the boat people choose this method is that they know they cannot get in via the legal routes because they have no claim to asylum.

That's not necessarily true, they claim asylum when they get here because this administration has made it virtually impossible to apply for asylum without landing here. That doesn't mean they are all entitled to claim asylum, but it does mean this government has ensured there is no way to know whether they are or are not entitled to do so unless they arrive here without permission.

 

[Jake]

Let them fall / drown. It’s a choice they made.

Either you are trolling or a bit sick.

 

[RobinBHM]

They have sought asylum around Europe, been rejected and then come to the UK to get ‘a better life,’ not fleeing for their life, economic migrants

When people get displaced, most stay in the region, hence why Turkey has 4 million, Jordan has 1.5 million etc.

The remainder disperse over a wide area, they choose countries where they have a connection, like family or the language.


The majority do not come to the U.K. because they have been rejected elsewhere.

Yes they are fleeing for their life.