THE FOURTH OF JULY

[Spectric]

Fortunately, Reform will struggle to get a single MP

But they could prevent the Conservatives from becoming the opposition party as they will probably do a lot better than people think, we need straight talking politicians like we had once upon a time who will get a job done and not worry if someone with a fragile delicate personality gets upset, they will get over it.

If you have big problems then it needs a big force to change it otherwise it just remains as a problem, people need to wake up to reality and the UK needs to stand up to it's rights otherwise we will just wither away into some 3rd world country without any identity.

What part of the Reform parties ideas upsets you so much, taking control of our borders and stopping the boats, making everyone pay their tax with no hiding places or putting the brakes on the damage being caused to the english lanuguage and the british way of life, ie wokyness.

 

[Jacob]

... UK needs to stand up to it's rights otherwise we will just wither away into some 3rd world country without any identity.

Rejoining EU would be a good start!

What part of the Reform parties ideas upsets you so much,

Nothing particularly - good to see them dividing the right wing vote

taking control of our borders and stopping the boats,

It's a global humanitarian issue. We should have stayed in the EU and shared the responsibility. We already have control of our borders and should give them a safer legal route here. Current policies are ineffective, brutal and stupid.

making everyone pay their tax with no hiding places or putting the brakes on the damage being caused to the english lanuguage and the british way of life, ie wokyness.

I'm all for wokeyness! Wake up everybody!
There are a lot of them - which British way of life did you have in mind?

 

[John Brown]

But they could prevent the Conservatives from becoming the opposition party as they will probably do a lot better than people think, we need straight talking politicians like we had once upon a time who will get a job done and not worry if someone with a fragile delicate personality gets upset, they will get over it.

If you have big problems then it needs a big force to change it otherwise it just remains as a problem, people need to wake up to reality and the UK needs to stand up to it's rights otherwise we will just wither away into some 3rd world country without any identity.

What part of the Reform parties ideas upsets you so much, taking control of our borders and stopping the boats, making everyone pay their tax with no hiding places or putting the brakes on the damage being caused to the english lanuguage and the british way of life, ie wokyness.

Must admit, I lie awake at night worrying about the English lanuguage.
Does that qualify as wokyness?

 

[RobinBHM]

I don't know enough about them, how they are funded or their candidates so I wouldn't be able to engage in such a debate without some research. What I would like to know is why anyone that dares to express right of centre beliefs are smeared in such a way. It is unhelpful and often the only argument that can be mustered against them that unfortunately invalidates their anti-right viewpoint.

I can give you some basics

1) they get some funding from fossil fuel interests

Nigel Farage’s Reform Party Took £135,000 from Climate Science Deniers and Fossil Fuel Interests​

All of the anti-net zero party’s funders in 2023 have oil and gas investments or ties to climate science denial.

2) which explains why Richard Tice has become a prominent spreader of climate change misinformation
https://www.desmog.com/2022/03/18/m...acklash-is-tied-to-climate-denial-and-brexit/

3) Richard Tice was chair of Leave means leave a Tufton street lobby group (if you want to know more about Tufton street here is a start
https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/tufton-street-dark-money/


I could continue on with Ben Habibs history and reforms connections to opaque funded libertarian lobby groups

 

[Spectric]

Old Nigel has been around a long time, probably had a major influence on getting us out of the EU and will tell you how it is directly without wrapping up his words in cotton wool. The problem is that a lot of people are now to fragile to be told any realities so directly but for those who are much older that was the way it always was and so things got done but not always the right things or decisions. Nigel refers to the boat people as an invasion, many people now cannot hear someone saying we are being invaded so get upset but when there are 10,000 people entering the UK illegally this year alone and yet there were only around 6000 Normans who conquered us in 1066 you can see why it can be classed as an invasion, especially as some of these men are or were ISIS fighters.

 

[Jacob]

Old Nigel has been around a long time, probably had a major influence on getting us out of the EU

Yes he did and it has been an absolute catastrophe so far, on every front. Very unlikely to bring us any advantage in the future either

and will tell you how it is directly without wrapping up his words in cotton wool.

Only how he thinks it is, though I imagine he is not so daft as to actually believe most of what he says himself.

The problem is that a lot of people are now to fragile to be told any realities so directly

Yes like climate change ....etc etc

but for those who are much older that was the way it always was and so things got done but not always the right things or decisions. Nigel refers to the boat people as an invasion, many people now cannot hear someone saying we are being invaded so get upset but when there are 10,000 people entering the UK illegally this year alone and yet there were only around 6000 Normans who conquered us in 1066 you can see why it can be classed as an invasion, especially as some of these men are or were ISIS fighters.

Could be classed as an invasion if that's how you want to see it, but in reality it's a refugee crisis in a troubled world.
It is destined to become much worse as climate change kicks in, as long as people are still able to move.
Farage's version is just rabble rousing nonsense.

 

[deema]

https://www.thenational.scot/news/1...ived-500-000-funding-chinese-communist-agent/

Labour MP receiving £500,000 from communist agents?

We could consider Labours record against the Jewish community?

Diane Abbot suspension and now embarrassment for Keir after the deputy leader threw her support behind a person who has expressed very antisemitism views.

To add a little balance

 

[Spectric]

but in reality it's a refugee crisis in a troubled world

That could be believable except for a couple of points. If they were genuine refugees then these men are cowards who just ran and left the women and children behind and so cannot use any legal migration pathway and why travel across so many countries and finally the English channel to reach the UK when they should seek asylum in the first safe country they arrive in.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Farage has the capacity to very directly change minds. He is a hugely effective communicator - as was Boris in the EU debacle. The remain campaign thought rational analysis would win the day - they were wrong!

That I disagree with him on Brexit and many other issues does not render him "rabble rousing nonsense". He exists and is very effective. He has the capacity for clarity and directness and is unencumbered by the desire to appeal to all and avoid alienating any.

There are few with his rhetorical talents - failing to recognise his strengths is a recipe for complacency and failure.

 

[BillHoughton]

Their election is on Guy Fawkes day. Mmmm ...

And this year, our election here in the breakaway colony may include some burning effigies, too! You guys don't get to keep all those bonfires to yourselves.

 

[Jacob]

.......

To add a little balance

To add a heap of **** more like.
I think this thread has suddenly reached the end of its useful life. I'm out of it.
PS except to add - its no surprise that the deemas of this world would think these things, the Labour leader himself has been slagging off his party and members from the start, with the same false accusations. Deema is entitled to take his word for it, it's from the horses mouth!
Starmer should have spent the last 4 years defending his party instead of attacking it and embedding "The Stain of Antisemitism" into the debate.

 

[Jake]

Nigel refers to the boat people as an invasion, many people now cannot hear someone saying we are being invaded so get upset but when there are 10,000 people entering the UK illegally this year alone and yet there were only around 6000 Normans who conquered us in 1066 you can see why it can be classed as an invasion, especially as some of these men are or were ISIS fighters.

Have you worked out yet Nigel's deception, that it's his Brexit which caused the problem?

 

[Adam W.]

Quite funny how he tried to claim German citizenship through his marriage, but they politely said Nein Danke, Herr Farage!

Funny that after he was soooo desperate to get out of the EU and now he wants back in, because it's eventually dawned on him what an old crock his Brexit is.

 

[mudman]

Quite funny how he tried to claim German citizenship through his marriage, but they politely said Nein Danke, Herr Farage!

Funny that after he was soooo desperate to get out of the EU and now he wants back in, because it's eventually dawned on him what an old crock his Brexit is.

Okay, now you are going to have to supply references as I can't find evidence of your claim.

 

[Keith Cocker]

I don't know enough about them, how they are funded or their candidates so I wouldn't be able to engage in such a debate without some research. What I would like to know is why anyone that dares to express right of centre beliefs are smeared in such a way. It is unhelpful and often the only argument that can be mustered against them that unfortunately invalidates their anti-right viewpoint.

But Reform are not “right of centre”. They are truly “Right Wing”. I respect a range of political views in society. It’s healthy but there are extremes to right and left that are dangerous and wrong. Reform are extremist right just as some groups are extreme left. I deplore both.

 

[Jameshow]

But Reform are not “right of centre”. They are truly “Right Wing”. I respect a range of political views in society. It’s healthy but there are extremes to right and left that are dangerous and wrong. Reform are extremist right just as some groups are extreme left. I deplore both.

Just like momentum then!!

 

[Chris152]

So what experience leads you to that claim? Do you know many members of the Reform party? How many people do you know that have declared their support for Reform? If you have some clear evidence of your claim, I would like to hear it. Or is it that you have been told that they are such people and so you parrot the same line?

Presumably Keith is using simple reasoning rather than empirical evidence (which you're asking for) - if the would-be politician expresses views that make them 'odious, racist, ignorant bigots' it would seem to follow that those who support the would-be politician are themselves odious, racist, ignorant bigots. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

 

[Sideways]

Keep the tone of this thread civilised please. I've deleted a handful of posts from the last day or two that are snarky and likely to encourage more such in response. This thread isn't going to OT2, rather 1 week bans will be issued without any other warning.
We have weeks to go yet, thanks for all the positive contributions.

 

[mudman]

But Reform are not “right of centre”. They are truly “Right Wing”. I respect a range of political views in society. It’s healthy but there are extremes to right and left that are dangerous and wrong. Reform are extremist right just as some groups are extreme left. I deplore both.

Yes, they are right wing. To the right of the current Tory party that have moved from true conservatism to the centre ground just at the Labour party have moved away from the true left to the centre as well. They now occupy the political vacuum that the Tories have left behind.
But how do you define extreme right wing? What makes you think they are such? If you are going to throw around such slurs, you really have to be able to back it up.

 

[Spectric]

Has anyone actually thought that the issues in the UK are so widespread and cover such a range of topics that they are now unsolvable if for no other reason than financial ? It is as if the UK has got stage 3 cancer and is on the verge of stage 4 and requiring end of life care. In reality the very last people we want involved to try and solve all these issues are politicians because they do not have the required skill sets, it is no use employing a dentist if you need open heart surgery so we are really discussing which hammer to buy when we only have screws and need a screwdriver and yes we could be crude and just bang in the screws but we want a professional job.

So what is the solution, we are currently only offered a limited range of tools from which to choose and most of these are worn out, blunt or just not fit for purpose so Starmer or Keir is no better / different than the raving looney monster party or the workers party and all we are doing is generating a lot of false hopes and heading closer to the cliff edge.

I will add that you have all done very well in keeping things above board and have maintained a good community spirit which has kept the thread open so congratulations.