shooting boards

[MikeW]

Some quickie random thoughts...

Wax and hand planes simply go together...us it.

Shooting boards can be as complicated or as simple as one desires. A couple of mine were built for longevity, most were simply ugly and expedient ones (same with bench hooks, but that's another topic).

A ramped board does skew the cut, just not as great a skew as one would get with a purpose built plane. But it does lower the effective cutting angle a tad.

The thing I think a ramped board used in conjunction with a regular bench plane (heavier is better in the plane department) is that one does not need a left/right skewed plane in order to have the effect on either side of the shoot board. Sometimes I have to use the left side.

It doesn't take much slant for the ramped board to have great effect. In fact, for slower controlled shavings, I think a ramped board with a plain bench plane is better than using a skew-bladed plane which has too great a skew angle (tends to want to lift the front of the plane).

Ok. Back to work...Mike

 

[bugbear]

But surely there must be some effect on the cut, not as in a skewed blade, but in the way that taking a cut at a slight angle is easier, sometimes, than going parallel to the edge.

I think one advantage of a ramp is that your initial entry into the wood is less violent; you more gradually catch the full cut. This can definitely help keep the plane from "jumping" on entry, especially on very hard woods, dull blades, or too heavy a cut. Or all three

Yes. I believe this to be the primary advantage.

Secondary is that it reduces breakout on the back edge, by making the exit from the cut gradual in the same way as you describe for the entry. The fibres are supported by their uncut neighbours.

I believe that the geometrical effect of lowering the effective cutting angle is third by a long way.

BugBear

 

[newt]

Paul I think it is how sharp is the blade. I had a very similar issue that you have until I realised what I thought was sharp was in fact not sharp at all. After honing it has to take a full layer of hair of my arm with the blade at a reasonable angle ( hair grows back quite quick, but H&S warning must apply) I had no other way yet of assessing sharpness ( no arterial blood yet). Some can determine by just looking at the blade or feeling with their thumb, I cannot. I have also seen some work where sharpness is assessed by dropping the blade from a calibrated height into a round bar of plastic material, the weight of the iron is normalized in the results. The depth of the incision is then measured, to messy for me. As stated the real test is on the softest wood God makes, and the wax treatment does make a difference. One further point we see on the forum almost weekly different sharpening methods but I have yet to see any suggestion of a qualitative method that folks use to assess the actual sharpness, perhaps it is just feel, if it produces the results it must be sharp. Alf makes a very good point about the lowest angle you can get away with without losing the edge after a couple of strokes.

 

[engineer one]

thanks newt, good to have another perspective on it.

you are right about sharpening, there is no actual definition,
it is all subjective, only you the person can determine whether it is sharp enough to do what you want it to. which is why there are so many methods, and none are wrong, neither are they correct for everybody.
it is what works for you, and you find easy to do.

certainly i have found my chisels are able to cut decent shavings in end grain, so i can't see why the plane is not able to do the same. so i will go back to about 20 degrees and work back up from there.

paul

 

[bugbear]

certainly i have found my chisels are able to cut decent shavings in end grain, so i can't see why the plane is not able to do the same.

A chisel can cut at a lower effective angle lower than any plane, since a chisel can be used bevel up at zero degrees bedding, so the effective angle is the same as the bevel angle. Low effective angle is most desirable in cutting end grain.

Only a low angle spokshave (old woodie, or Lee Valley) can match this.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx ... 50230&ap=1

BugBear

 

[dunbarhamlin]

I believe that the geometrical effect of lowering the effective cutting angle is third by a long way.

I don't see that using a ramped board has any effect on cutting angle. The blade edge is still being held perpendicular to the direction of cut. Like cutting a swathe diagonally across a board with the plane pointing in the direction of travel, as opposed to holding the plane parallel to the board edge for the same diagonal cut.

With thin boards (< 1/8") a a further advantage of a ramped board is that the cutting action helps hold the wood flat to the board surface, as should it lift this will introduce wind.

Cheers
Steve

 

[newt]

Paul, please keep us in the picture with the changes you make particularly when ribbon like shavings appear. One aspect that I do not think was mentioned is that, mouth size is not that important with end grain work (I stand to be corrected) as you are not trying to control long grain splitting, so you could be quite generous with the setting.

 

[engineer one]

newt, will do , but must finish the bookshelves first :roll: :?

paul :wink:

 

[bugbear]

I believe that the geometrical effect of lowering the effective cutting angle is third by a long way.

I don't see that using a ramped board has any effect on cutting angle.

Quite right- sorry, typing quicker than thinking.

The other two effect are common to ramps and skewed blades, but only skewed blades lower the effective cutting angle. And (BTW) not by much unless the skew is quite extreme.

BugBear

 

[newt]

Ref pauls tearout. As has been said when the SB is new you take the first pass without anything on the SB and that takes a slice off of everything except the small area on the bottom of the sole where there is no blade, and we could assume the blade depth was say 4 thou. You then place your piece and the cut is fine no tearout, full support by the stop. Later when doing the same you have the depth of cut to say 2 thou, you then have 2 thou of the piece un - supported. You could as has been suggested use a backing piece each time and that does the job. I get around it by taking a couple of swipes with a shoulder plane and then every thing is back to normal. So if the depth of cut is less than the first pass there cannot be full support (I could be talking nonsense) is this what may be the case with Pauls problem. Apologies to those that know this and for my ramblings.

 

[engineer one]

interesting newt, that seems to be what others are saying.

however, there is a complication. i resharpened the blade last night back down to 20 degrees, and tried it i still get a decent finish, but not really shavings. however i do get shavings when planing along with the grain. :?

re the point raised by chris earlier, although the mouth is adjustable i have opened it as much as possible, but still does not seem to be enough.

with a fine set, i get very fine shavings/dust, but when i increase the set, it becomes more difficult to start the cut, and i do not know whether that would improve if i waxed the sole, since it is the cutting action which is the problem, not the moving of the plane which does not stick in motion.

it is the beginning of the cut that is causing me the problems, once i get that sorted it will be plane sailing :lol: :twisted:

i can live with the end finish which is smooth and shiny, just be happier if i was doing it the same way as everyone else :roll:

paul :wink:

 

[mr]

Paul I don't mean to be doing the egg sucking thing if you see what I mean but your honing angle seems to be going up and down like the proverbial drawers. I think you might have more luck returning the iron to its original angle on the basis that it was shipped that way for a reason and then trying to get a usable result from it. Once you have done that then by all means tweak the honing angle if you think you can improve things. One of the keys to getting the result you want from my other life setting up large scale projection systems is that when results are not as expected change one thing at a time until the new result can be quantified. If you go changing all sorts of things at once you cant really work out what changes are having a positive effect.

Cheers Mike

 

[engineer one]

you are right mike, that is why i went back to the shipped angle.

indeed i am only changing one thing at a time, but can't change me :twisted:

interestingly i tried with my ln block plane, and got decent finish, but
no real shavings though :?

again, the mouth is open fully.

paul :wink:

 

[Paul Kierstead]

Really, assuming a sane angle, there are only 3 possible reasons (well, Ok, I am making this up as I go, so might be more):
1. Too slight of a cut
2. Not sharp enough.
3. Wood from ****. Some wood is a lot harder to get a endgrain shaving from then others. Some is pretty easy. Try with a hard dense wood.

Usually (3) would still be because of (2). And if you are really really sharp, even a very slight cut will give you a shaving. Basically, the odds are very very good that it is (2). Extremely good. Waaaaay out there good. Work on the sharpening. You can get a long grain shaving off a blade that you banged into concrete a few times, but end grain requires really really sharp.

Can you get an end-grain shaving "by hand" (i.e. sans shooting board), using a slicing motion with a block plane?

 

[Alf]

...i do not know whether that would improve if i waxed the sole, since it is the cutting action which is the problem, not the moving of the plane which does not stick in motion.

Paul, you just made me shout a Bad Thing at the monitor :evil: - to paraphrase; WAX IT! You should be using a brisk to and fro motion - the easier the plane moves the better it moves into the cut and does the job before you've got time to go "oo, it's a little bit of work, this" :roll: ](*,) And I still have suspicions about your sharpening; remind me, what's your method?

Cheers, Alf

 

[engineer one]

alright alf i'll ttry again.
but recent experience says i am fine at getting it done for with the grain :?

i'll try my old candle and see what that does, and give the blade another go. not sure whether to admit it, but the ln low angle block plane works very well with mdf :twisted: , and still cuts corners in real wood too.

since everybody said softwood was more difficult, that is what i am practising on, so :roll: when i get that done i'll move on to the real stuff :lol:

thanks for the help though

and yes its a tormek, but i might have to add a waterstone clean up too :roll:

paul :wink:

 

[mr]

Forgive my ignorance - with a Tormek do you change wheels to go through the grits? or is it a case of one size fits all and then hone on a strop or somesuch?

Nasty softwood is cheap and relatively easily available which is why I started with it. Having said that I would never suggest anyone actually attempt to learn or practice with it. I did / do but that's a needs must thing. It's disheartening and I don't believe it's that helpful - ie not a case of if I can drive round L'Arc de Triomphe I can drive anywhere.

Cheers Mike

 

[Paul Kierstead]

since everybody said softwood was more difficult, that is what i am practising on, so :roll: when i get that done i'll move on to the real stuff :lol:

Just like most of us don't try an ornate Victorian secretary as first time project (hmm, that sounds kind of dirty), it might be easier to work your way up instead of trying for the hardest situation and working down.

 

[engineer one]

yes mike there is only one grinding wheel on the tormek, and you change the grit ability by using a grader, then you use the leather honing wheel with some compound topolish and hone.

works for my other edge tools, including the No6 :?

paul, i agree that it is better to start at the bottom of the slope, but what everybody said was that if you could do it with softwood, then hardwood was a breeze :roll: . so far though, i have only a piece of oak that is about 2inch square, so of course it is too big for the plane

will reset the blade tonight, and ensure it is really sharp, then see what i can do with a candle on its sole too 8)

paul :wink:

 

[DaveL]

will reset the blade tonight, and ensure it is really sharp, then see what i can do with a candle on its sole too 8)

Paul,

Wax the side of the plane that is on the board, you need it to glide down the runway.