shooting boards

[MikeW]

The mouth is adjustable on the #9...open it way up.

Also, and I don't mean to be pedantic or treat you that way, but the bevel on #9 goes up...

Take care, Mike

 

[engineer one]

ok tried again, different plane, and this time i know i will sound like a collector, but

this time my LN 62, which is also a bevel up with an adjustable mouth.

this time however, the mouth is able to be adjusted to a greater gap than on the No 9, and it cuts as sweet as a nut. so it must be the mouth opening on the No 9. which means either i have to grind down the present one to get a decent gap, or having emailed LN, will see what they suggest too.

want to sort the No 9, cause with my hands, it is easier to use, doesn't rub my mashed up little finger so much, and is easier to set up a rythym. 8)

so not cured, but beginning to understand, and at least it shows i can produce some sharp blades :twisted: :roll: :lol:

paul :wink:

 

[engineer one]

mike thanks for not teaching me to suck the eggs.
i have taken the throat plate off, and adjusted the screw as far as i can,
still can't get a very big gap.
will photograph and post .

paul :wink:

 

[engineer one]

mike here are the photos i have just taken.

shows the throat plate off the base, as well as the bevel up :lol:

more importantly it shows that with the specific screw in place, i cannot open the throat plate any more.

either i need a longer screw, or a shorter throat plate :?

the throat plate is out as far as i can get it.

[/url]






hope this makes it clearer that i am not so stupid as to not have tried all the tricks with the throat opening and it is still too long for the hole i need.

at least some of my training has paid off :roll:

paul :wink: [/img]

 

[MikeW]

Hmm. Though the pics are a little blurry, it appears to me the adjustable mouth plate is not milled to allow as wide a mouth as mine was capable of. I would recommend emailing LN with a link to these pictures and inquire from them.

I would probably just file the pipper open carefully so as to maintain a square opening.

That said, the opening you have should be capable of producing nice shavings. Which I suspect is a frustrating statement.

Take care, Mike

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Paul

Are you only having trouble getting savings on the pine end grain, or is this replicated on other wood types? Soft pine can be impossible to get shavings on.

A few notes.

I think that regrinding the bevel angle to 20 degrees is inappropriate. Firstly it is unrealistic since a bevel this low will not last. Secondly it is possible to take shavings on soft wood end grain with a high cutting angle. I interchangeably use a HNT Gordon Trying plane (60 degrees), LV LA Jack (37 degrees), and a LV LA Smoother (37 degrees).

Here is a HNT Gorgon on medium soft Mahogany:

I consider that the key elements to successful shooting are a sharp blade and a fine cut. The size of the mouth is irrelevant.

The ramped shooting board that I built some years ago was based on the ramped board of Michael Connor, which was introduced to me by Terry Gordon (of HNT Gordon). Up until then I was using a flat shooting board. Both types work but I find the ramped board is (slightly) smoother in the cut.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[MikeW]

...I consider that the key elements to successful shooting are a sharp blade and a fine cut. The size of the mouth is irrelevant...

I would qualify this to say the mouth can be set too finely to take a decent end-grain shaving...which doesn't appear the case with Paul.

Take care, Mike

 

[engineer one]

thanks again guys, nice to hear from actual toolmakers and users :?

when i first started with the No 9 as it was i got very fine shavings which basically became dust when i knocked the plane to get them out. this was on softwood, so i then tried some thinnish maple, white, and that got me
thin shavings with a bit of body, but not a full length one.

i then tried the LV No 6, and got a better shaving :?

read the instructions from No9, and it says that the bevelis 20 degrees, the blade 25, so i tried 20 degrees because others have said maybe below 40 degrees is the way to go. now i have it at about 22.5 so haing 42.5.

so in this mode i get slightly better shavings, but not a full length one.

then i used the 62 and got some really decent shavings, but again not full length, so i checked, and although i am prepared to accept that another 2-2.5 degrees might make a difference to the sharpness, what i noticed with the other two planes was that their mouth was bigger, so i concluded that this might well be provide a causitive aaction because obviously with a narrow mouth, you would tend to break the shavings quite quickly.

so i will try to take some better pictures of the blade and throat plate, and then take mike's advice and send them to TLN and see what they say.

i will also try to put a spacer, or maybe shorten the screw slightly to see what that does.or at least try a work around.

the other thing i have found is there does seem to be something in the way in which you approach the planing. it may well be easier to plane from one direction than the other. "end grain direction?" for instance i can quite easily cut a piece of 4x1 oak, but 13/4 x 1 3/4 is more difficult ????

we will crack this eventually maybe i need a bloody great jarra plane to do it with, but then i have a No 9 anchor :lol:

i think mike is right, the throat plate is too long, but i do get as i have said a decent finish on the end of the wood, and it is now square :roll:

paul :wink:

 

[ByronBlack]

but i do get as i have said a decent finish on the end of the wood, and it is now square

Seems like it's working? Are shavings that important? Not having a dig here paul, I just think that sometimes we can over-think things sometimes, I know I personally do - well too much for my own liking really

Of course, if you're really unhappy with your LN No.9 I could ease your burden by kindly taking it of your hands :twisted:

 

[Paul Chapman]

send them to TLN and see what they say.

Hi Paul,

You've probably already thought of this, but I suggest that you also ask TLN what size the mouth should be when it's opened as far as it will go. It will then be a simple matter to measure yours and see if the mouth is a problem.

If you wait until Tuesday when that stuff I've sent you should arrive, I'm sure that will answer a lot of your questions :wink:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[engineer one]

thanks all, and no the No 9 is not going to be slung into the big world of cadgers :lol:

having checked everything it is certain that it is almost impossible to increase the size of the opening without grinding off some of the front of the throat plate. i had hoped that i could washer it, but there is an upstand where the adjusting screw goes, and this as much as anything else limits the movement.
tre boring.

i will measure and send details to TLN and see what they say.

byron i just want it to be slightly easier so i am hoping that it is not just my technique that needs improving :?

i await with interest paul :roll:

paul :wink:

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Derek wrote:

...I consider that the key elements to successful shooting are a sharp blade and a fine cut. The size of the mouth is irrelevant...

Mike clarified:

I would qualify this to say the mouth can be set too finely to take a decent end-grain shaving...which doesn't appear the case with Paul.

Yes, I agree completely. My first thought is that users believe that they need as small a mouth as possible for end grain. I meant to say that this is not needed and a large mouth is going to produce the same shaving as a small mouth. What is important is a fine blade projection. However, too small a mouth will prevent shavings passing. This, or the wood itself, is a likely cause of the current situation.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[engineer one]

derek, thanks again, i am certain that the mouth cannot open enough to allow me to gain the advantage of a full shaving. i don't mind them being broken i would just like them to be what others suggest they could be.

after careful measuring of the throat plate, and its attendant mounting points i cannot open the mouth of the throat to a greater distance than between 1 mm and 1/16 of an inch, which is about half what i think it needs if the experience with the LN 62 is anything to go by. it gives me better cuttings(shavings) and the mouth is about 2mm open. i can also get a deeper opening with that it is just a pipper to use since i cannot hold it properly.

byron, sorry to seem to dismiss your comments but after review, let me provide you with my thought. i want to combine hand skills with the sensible use of machinery. too much dependence at this time on hand work means i'll never get things finished, so i try to combine learning certain hand skills with machinery so that i can produce a number of things relatively quickly.

i have been lucky enough to learn recently to hand plane rough boards for face and edge, so i wanted to be able to clean up end grain, and to that end a shooting board looked like a good thing, actually as jacob suggested i thought it might also help with some edge work.

so although the shooting board is ok, and works quite well, i need now to make the plane i bought (albiet some time ago) to work properly there. but that is for personal satisfaction as much as producing things.

of course the strangest thing is i have not had this problem with my 60 1/2
and i use that on mdf too :? problem is of course the blade it too narrow for much of the work on my board.

so having started back, i want to make things, but when making a jig to ease my work, i want it to work properly, or i need to know why it does not. :roll:

paul :wink:

 

[JesseM]

Have you drawn a square line on the face you are squaring to see if it is getting square? I was thinking that it may be hitting the first bit and bouncing out of the cut. Think of a slightly rounded face on one end. You mentioned trying some pretty thick boards. This would make the above more likely to happen. It would feel like the plane is not even making contact on the wood.

Also I have found with my LN BUJ that you can make incremental depths adjustments by tightening the lever cap. You may try this with the LN 9 to see if it affects the cut. Use your judgment here, I am thinking on the order of 1/4 to 1/2 turns.

 

[Martin Cash]

Paul

Are you only having trouble getting savings on the pine end grain, or is this replicated on other wood types? Soft pine can be impossible to get shavings on.

A few notes.

I think that regrinding the bevel angle to 20 degrees is inappropriate. Firstly it is unrealistic since a bevel this low will not last. Secondly it is possible to take shavings on soft wood end grain with a high cutting angle. I interchangeably use a HNT Gordon Trying plane (60 degrees), LV LA Jack (37 degrees), and a LV LA Smoother (37 degrees).

Here is a HNT Gorgon on medium soft Mahogany:

I consider that the key elements to successful shooting are a sharp blade and a fine cut. The size of the mouth is irrelevant.

The ramped shooting board that I built some years ago was based on the ramped board of Michael Connor, which was introduced to me by Terry Gordon (of HNT Gordon). Up until then I was using a flat shooting board. Both types work but I find the ramped board is (slightly) smoother in the cut.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek's picture of the Michael Connor design shows one more advantage of the ramped shooting board.

This is that the work is exposed to more of the blade's width as the plane passes it. For longer pieces this means spreading the cut over more of the blade.
Conventional shooting boards tend to wear the left hand side of the blade or the blade's centre or both.
It's a good design, copied by many.
Regards
MC

 

[David C]

Paul,

I use this plane a lot and it is wonderful.

I suspect that the trouble you are having with the no 9 is most likely to be a sharpening issue, unless you have a defective blade, which is always possible.

I would hone and polish a secondary bevel at no less than 30 degrees, I use 33 or 35 degrees according to the hardness of the wood, as medium hardwood up to rosewood & cocobolo etc are the timbers most used here. Low honing angles do not hold up well in A2 steel, they may hold up better in carbon steel.

It is virtually impossible to load a blade in bevel up planes without blunting the edge on the blade supporting slope before you have even started, as one is obliged to ground the sharp end before the top of the blade. Therefore I place a thin sheet of card on the support slope, to provide a cushion for the edge. This card is withdrawn though the mouth once the blade is flat on the slope.

Mitre planes are for precision work. The mouth needs to be no wider than the thickest shaving you are passing through it. I would be very surprised if you could take an end grain shaving of more than 6 thousandths of an inch. One to two thou" would be more usual. There is absolutely no reason to set a mouth opening in excess of 0.3mm (12 thou"), the thickness of an average business card, ever! (on this kind of plane)

Best wishes,
David Charlesworth

 

[engineer one]

thanks DC i wondered whether there were more than two schools of thought.

it is just interesting that with the 62 i seem to get a cleaner cut with the wider mouth :?

i have emailed TLN to see whether my throat plate is to the right dimensions, but i will re-sharpen the blade, and try your cardboard trick

thanks all for the generosity of time

paul :wink:

 

[engineer one]

just another comment from an amateur.

all this talk about sloping shooting boards, well frankly guys you seem to be talking rubbish for the most part. most of the time we tend to end grain timber about 2 inches wide, so it the angular displacement is almost imperceptible, and frankly is not likely to make too much difference to the wear rate. unless the taper at the front end is really high, then the amount of shift along the blade is less than 1/8th of an inch i would guess.

i can see the slicing motion having start up value, but other wise until i try one i cannot see that it makes too much difference. :roll:

paul :wink:

 

[engineer one]

well i re-sharpened the No 9 blade again last night, and then reset it using the Charlesworth trick of a thin piece of card to save the blade when installing it.

angle is now 27.5 degrees on the blade.

put it back and it works more cleanly, and i get a decent smooth edge that is square both vertically and horizontally, but still not a very thick one.

more importantly it is not as smooth as the LN 62 used on its side.
on neither have i used wax i just wanted to see whether the motion was any different.

so my conclusion is that the throat opening is important no matter how far the blade protrudes

paul :wink:

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

so my conclusion is that the throat opening is important no matter how far the blade protrudes

Hi Paul

Here is a link to a post of mine on WoodCentral some time ago in which I demonstrated the absence of difference between a large vs small mouth on end grain. Of course this is different from your situation where the issue is a small verses too small mouth.

http://woodcentral.com.ldh0138.uslec.net/cgi-bin/archives_handtools.pl?read=68098

Regards from Perth

Derek