Sharpening chisels/planes

[David C]

For chisels and square edge plane blades, with or without camber, the Eclipse type is best.

If used carefully you won't get a groove in your stone.

David

 

[ED65]

Having read all of what has been written here and elsewhere on this subject, which honing guide would members choose between the Veritas MK 11 and the Eclipse 36 and why.Thanks

Neither or both. This is a good read if you've not seen it before, Understanding Honing Guides from Popular Woodworking written by Christopher Schwarz, but I'd particularly draw your attention to the page tacked on the end by Joel Moskowitz on why you don't need a guide

If you do want a jig I'd actually encourage you to build one, might cost you 50p in materials and I promise you you'll have a jig more capable than the Eclipse and probably as good as the hugely overpriced Veritas.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

Having read all of what has been written here and elsewhere on this subject, which honing guide would members choose between the Veritas MK 11 and the Eclipse 36 and why.Thanks

Neither or both. This is a good read if you've not seen it before, Understanding Honing Guides from Popular Woodworking written by Christopher Schwarz, but I'd particularly draw your attention to the page tacked on the end by Joel Moskowitz on why you don't need a guide

If you do want a jig I'd actually encourage you to build one, might cost you 50p in materials and I promise you you'll have a jig more capable than the Eclipse and probably as good as the hugely overpriced Veritas.

I completely understand Moskowitz's point. As someone with quite a bit of the learning curve still ahead of me(!), I find a jig most useful in getting the primary bevel (if not also any secondary bevel) edge at 90 degrees to the length of the blade - e.g. for shoulder plane irons and the like. Once I've got the cutting edge properly square, I'm happy enough to do a bit of freehand honing as the blade dulls thereafter - until the edge starts looking wonky and then I go back to the jig to square things up!

I've made a wooden jig out of scrap for sharpening curved gouges etc. which works fine - again, most useful if squaring up a wonky edge. Cheers, W2S

 

[bugbear]

I completely understand Moskowitz's point.

His opinion seems a little circular - if people aren't getting as good results from hand sharpening as jigs, he says it's either bad technique or lack of practise. That's such a general assertion, it carries little information.

Consider replacing "hand sharpening" with "unicycle riding".

Clearly better technique, or more practice will improve your unicycle riding, and one day your unicycle riding might be excellent, but getting a bicycle might be the more practical way forward.

BugBear

 

[Woodmatt]

Thanks for your thought ED65 and for the link,as you say interesting reading.I also went to the link suggested by Joel Moskowitz

http://www.antiquetools.com/sharp/index.html


The method/technique for sharpening suggested there is completely different to what I was taught some 40 years ago so I will give that method a go before I spend money on a guide.

The next question is do member consider Water Stones to be better that India Stones?

 

[Trafalgar]

If one parses what sharp truly is then it is possible, logically, to conclude that it is not really achievable and therefore woodworking itself would be a waste of time.

In retrospect I think the best edges I've ever achieved were with a jig and very fine grit sandpaper on glass - just blisteringly sharp. The speed lost in setting the cutter in the jig is recouped by the cutting speed afforded by the abrasive sheets. The only problem with all of this of course are the tools that cannot be conveniently jigged. You have to learn freehand honing anyway and then once learned one tends to use it for everything.

It's a matter of inevitability I guess.

 

[Jacob]

Thanks for your thought ED65 and for the link,as you say interesting reading.I also went to the link suggested by Joel Moskowitz

http://www.antiquetools.com/sharp/index.html


The method/technique for sharpening suggested there is completely different to what I was taught some 40 years ago so I will give that method a go before I spend money on a guide.

The next question is do member consider Water Stones to be better that India Stones?

Norton India stones are cheaper, work well and last much longer than water stones.
Jigs don't work on less than flat surfaces which probably accounts for the popularity of water stones with jig users - they are softer and flatten easily, which is no advantage for freehanders.

 

[Corneel]

I completely understand Moskowitz's point.

His opinion seems a little circular - if people aren't getting as good results from hand sharpening as jigs, he says it's either bad technique or lack of practise. That's such a general assertion, it carries little information.

Consider replacing "hand sharpening" with "unicycle riding".

Clearly better technique, or more practice will improve your unicycle riding, and one day your unicycle riding might be excellent, but getting a bicycle might be the more practical way forward.

BugBear

You clearly didn't understand the message: freehand sharpening is easy! When people do it the wrong way or when they don't persevere a bit through the initial learning curve, yes then it becomes a problem.

My daughter was good with unicycling when she was a kid. It took her several days though to get the hang of it. Stuborn perseverance, nothing else. But unicycling is a lot harder then freehand sharpening.

 

[Corneel]

The benefits of freehand sharpening:

It's quicker, especially chisels. So you are less inclined to continue working with blunt tools.
You can sharpen every tool. And there are a lot of tools that don't fit any honing guide.
You don't hollow your stones nearly as quickly.
You don't need absolutely flat stones (I haven't flattened my oilstones yet in two years of use).
So you save yourself all those stone flattening sessions.
You can use smaller or narrower stones which are a lot cheaper.
You save yourself the usual troubles that jigs tend to give all kinds of users.
You save yourself a little bit of money not buying the jigs.

The easiest tools to freehand sharpen are the chisels and the planeblade, especially the chisels. When you rely on a jig to do the easy ones, then you face a much bigger challenge as soon as you need something that doen't fit a jig. Something like a gouge, or and axe, or a routerplane blade or whatever.

 

[Racers]

Corneel,

Not everybody can sharpen freehand I have a dyspraxic son and a wife with a benign hand tremor who would really struggle.

I will have to put you on my ignore list if you insist that its easy, thats just not fair everybody, no one likes to be made to feel stupid if they can't do something that most other people can do, thats discrimanation.

Pete

 

[Woody2Shoes]

I'm afraid I assumed the use of a flat "stone" of some sort. I guess a dished stone helps if you want a camber. I sharpen my scythe blade (without a jig) with a piece of red house-brick! Cheers, W2S

 

[D_W]

Corneel,

Not everybody can sharpen freehand I have a dyspraxic son and a wife with a benign hand tremor who would really struggle.

I will have to put you on my ignore list if you insist that its easy, thats just not fair everybody, no one likes to be made to feel stupid if they can't do something that most other people can do, thats discrimanation.

Pete

Pete, in wrestling terms, is this a work or a shoot?

We all get things differently. I do think freehand sharpening is easily attainable to everyone, but in the words of the guy who popularized the Bear bow video series, perfect practice makes perfect.

If the method doesn't come to you, even a video may not show it, but were you to end up in my shop for a few minutes, I think I could make it attainable.

That's excluding people who have physical difficulties that would prevent them from being able to do it in terms of dexterity.

 

[D_W]

I'm afraid I assumed the use of a flat "stone" of some sort. I guess a dished stone helps if you want a camber. I sharpen my scythe blade (without a jig) with a piece of red house-brick! Cheers, W2S

You can sharpen a flat object with an out of flat stone, and in doing so correctly, slowly work the out of flat stone back to flat. Literally the only issue with an out of flat stone is that the abrasive contact points may be small and the abrasive can cut more deeply.

I bought two stones last Tuesday. One came from the dollar store here, it was literally a dollar. I tried it out and was surprised to see that its abrasive power was quite strong. I won't say what the other stone was.

At any rate, I already know the answer as to whether or not the dollar stone (which is probably not that flat) can be useful in a sharpening cycle because I know it cuts strongly. I tested it out in combination only with Dursol polish (similar to autosol) on MDF and then stropped it and eventually hung a hair on the edge and severed it.

It is the method (the freehand method) that makes this attainable, but more than just the freehand method, the idea of not trying to get stones or abrasives to do unnecessary work. Let the grinder do the bulk, and the work on the stones is fairly minimal.

Initial flattening can be done with sandpaper on glass - it's better at high removal rates than stones are, anyway.

 

[Racers]

Corneel,

Not everybody can sharpen freehand I have a dyspraxic son and a wife with a benign hand tremor who would really struggle.

I will have to put you on my ignore list if you insist that its easy, thats just not fair everybody, no one likes to be made to feel stupid if they can't do something that most other people can do, thats discrimanation.

Pete

Pete, in wrestling terms, is this a work or a shoot?

We all get things differently. I do think freehand sharpening is easily attainable to everyone, but in the words of the guy who popularized the Bear bow video series, perfect practice makes perfect.

If the method doesn't come to you, even a video may not show it, but were you to end up in my shop for a few minutes, I think I could make it attainable.

That's excluding people who have physical difficulties that would prevent them from being able to do it in terms of dexterity.

I don't understand your wrestling analogy.

The problem is that not everybody is able bodied or disabled there are shades, me I am slightly dispraxic my hand eye cordination isn't the best, I am very dislexic, sequences, remembering numbers etc are very hard.

So I find it unbeleavble that people put so much importance on freehand sharpening, why not critisize prople who can't walk, "look I can do it easly"

Pete

 

[D_W]

In my terms, you'd say "it's a shoot".

I would love it if the whole world could simplify talking about situations in pro wrestling terms, but I am very far from seeing that happen. Right now, kees is no-selling your reply.

You do what you can do at the bench, sharpening, or whatever it may be. What's probably going to come up for a lot of folks is the thought that freehand sharpening is ultimately much easier than most woodworking operations - that is where I think it's a matter of method, though developing the touch and making it a long-term memory thing.

I share some of your sentiment about differences - it is almost impossible for me to remember names in the short term, sequences, lists of wants from my wife, almost anything, and parts of my executive functions don't seem to work at all (planning ,working memory, etc).

I know kees fairly well from his online conquests (how's that kees?..."conquests!!"), and I also know that he's a much nicer person than me and I'm sure he didn't intend anything personal.

 

[Corneel]

Of course Pete, being disabled changes everything. I should have include that caveat. My comments were with healthy people in mind.

But you would be surprised what you can do with some disabilities. I am stottering quite badly, doesn't keep me from talking a lot ;-) The guy who runs Old Street Tools, making some of the best wooden handplanes on the world with mostly handtools, has a severe tremour in one of his arms. He freehand sharpens too and advocates it. I don't write this to bully you, more like an encouragment to try all things that are difficult for you. Everybody has his limits, it is always fun to push them a little.

 

[Corneel]

I know kees fairly well from his online conquests (how's that kees?..."conquests!!"), and I also know that he's a much nicer person than me and I'm sure he didn't intend anything personal.

Ha, I on't conqueer anything! Most things I try are overwhelming for me too.

 

[lurker]

Of course Pete, being disabled changes everything. I should have include that caveat. My comments were with healthy people in mind.

But you would be surprised what you can do with some disabilities. I am stottering quite badly, doesn't keep me from talking a lot ;-) The guy who runs Old Street Tools, making some of the best wooden handplanes on the world with mostly handtools, has a severe tremour in one of his arms. He freehand sharpens too and advocates it. I don't write this to bully you, more like an encouragment to try all things that are difficult for you. Everybody has his limits, it is always fun to push them a little.

You can see from the stuff Pete "knocks out" he needs no encouragement to push himself.
His hand skills are quite remarkable and I was unaware he had hand eye coordination problems until today.

Folks can we just accept some people are ok with free hand and others like other ways

 

[Corneel]

Let me be clear. I have absolutely nothing whatsover against anyone using what he deems himself usefull in his own shop!

This is a discussion forum though. A place to exchange ideas and to use arguments to convince someone else about something. I think I posted some very good arguments in favor of freehand sharpening. Do with it whatever you like.

When you are a woodworking teacher, then things are a little more subtle. I think you owe it to your students to learn the very usefull skill of freehand sharpening. It's one of these once in a lifetime oportunities for them to learn it, to get over their own trepidation regarding freehand sharpening. It's of course easier to shove a jig in their hands and get on with the project at hand.

 

[D_W]

Let me be clear. I have absolutely nothing whatsover against anyone using what he deems himself usefull in his own shop!

This is a discussion forum though. A place to exchange ideas and to use arguments to convince someone else about something. I think I posted some very good arguments in favor of freehand sharpening. Do with it whatever you like.

When you are a woodworking teacher, then things are a little more subtle. I think you owe it to your students to learn the very usefull skill of freehand sharpening. It's one of these once in a lifetime oportunities for them to learn it, to get over their own trepidation regarding freehand sharpening. It's of course easier to shove a jig in their hands and get on with the project at hand.

Agree...and it gets those students right up to sharpening everything they can find that has an edge and is large enough to be held in hand. Knives, scissors, gouges, moulding plane irons, ...

...kitchen gadget blades, fruit peelers, turning tools, etc...some care with those things, especially peelers if there will be kids using them, but they work a treat when they're sharpened whereas a too-sharp knife can cut too deep peeling things on the quick.