Sharpening chisels/planes
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bugbear
Established Member
I note that Jacob has strong opinions on how beginners should be taught, but that people who actually teach beginners have different opinions.
It appears that Jacob's opinions are "theoretical".
BugBear
It appears that Jacob's opinions are "theoretical".
BugBear
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ED65":32mhqa4l said:
A 50 degrees sharpened blade in a 12 degrees low angle block gives an effective cutting angle of 62 degrees, great for interlocked or difficult grain. I like to use a low angle blade 38 grind with just the sharpening angle at 50, make life much easier when sharpening.
Cheers Peter
iNewbie
Established Member
Jacob":328ic7x0 said:
And this 20 minute knowledge came after you couldn't freehand for years and bought some Jigs?
Previous post: "When I first rediscovered freehand sharpening some years back (having been tempted down the jig route for a number of frustrating years) I was so pleased I sharpened absolutely everything I could lay my hands on; 100 or more items including dragging out boxes of old chisels and planes never to be used. Didn't take long!
I still keep finding them - many of them unused, neglected but still surprisingly sharp!"
To be fair though BB, there are many theoreticals in sharpening.
Waterstone users sharpening to 8k, 10k, even 12k and above, invariably talk about how good their edges are, how much better they are, but as many here know that's mostly theoretical (or to put it another way, irrelevant).
Waterstone users sharpening to 8k, 10k, even 12k and above, invariably talk about how good their edges are, how much better they are, but as many here know that's mostly theoretical (or to put it another way, irrelevant).
Eric The Viking
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I'd love to sharpen freehand but I can't - trust me, you really wouldn't want my hands these days.
They used to be straight and normal, now they're not. It took me ten years or so to get used to the deformity, and I still often smash crockery (the wife is very patient). When you get arthritis, it's not just the joint damage, but your brain expects the fingers to move in a certain way... and they don't/won't. You have to re-learn where your fingers actually are, and even that changes over time.
I was never very good at sharpening freehand as a youngster, but then I was never properly taught and the materials - good quality stones etc., weren't available to me.
So I use my own variant of scary sharp and jigs, but it's for two reasons: firstly it helps when you can't grip easily or fumble - you don't wreck an edge you've been working. Secondly, I'm still learning, and jigs let me change a little at a time. Freehand there are simply too many variables for me to learn where I'm going wrong. Maybe it would be different if I had an expert looking over my shoulder, but I don't.
And I don't find scary sharp slow or expensive. When the alternative risks screwing up and having to start again, I'm happy to spend a couple of seconds fitting a chisel into an Eclipse jig, and then touching it up to a properly sharp edge.
Using a jig doesn't make me a better sharpener. It makes me an efficient one.
FWIW, I also have a wet grindstone of the Tormek style. Once in a blue moon I have managed to get a plane iron or chisel dry-shaving sharp from it, but I'm blowed if I know how I did it. I've read-up on the things, watched the videos, bought the grading stones, etc. And the cure-all complex jigs for tricky things (most of which simply don't deliver - more fool me!). I know how to use the leather honing wheel side, too. But sometimes it all works and sometimes it doesn't and, crucially, I can't get it to be consistent.
Waste of money? Not really, because it's handy and quick for getting a good basic shape to a tool, but I find that is its best use. And I can use it for restoring things like kitchen knives when the edge has been wrecked through misuse (and being cheap steel, usually!).
Scary sharp isn't complicated. It's really simple - flat surface, go down through the grits using a jig. Anyone can do it, AND get really good results first-go.
I have to say, I've looked at some of the posh jigs, Veritas notably. Neat ideas, but a hundred quid's worth*? Honestly???
The eclipse does it for me 95% of the time. There a couple of weird cases - skewed blades for side rebate planes and gouges, for example, where it can't ever work, and others (heavy mortice chisels), where things won't fit reliably, but otherwise it's wonderful, even for cambered blades. Not having a linisher, I struggle with doing gouges, and those I do indeed attempt freehand. But they're nothing like as sharp as they probably could be.
With due deference to both David C. and Peter S., if 'twere me, I'd teach scary sharp first**. This is simply because the student then learns what a suitably sharp edge actually is, and that they really can do it for themselves. That boosted my confidence enormously. And I now know what I'm looking for when I experiment with other methods.
Everyone's mileage, etc.
E.
*by the time you've got all the options/accessories, essential add-ons, etc.
** the may well do that - I don't know.
They used to be straight and normal, now they're not. It took me ten years or so to get used to the deformity, and I still often smash crockery (the wife is very patient). When you get arthritis, it's not just the joint damage, but your brain expects the fingers to move in a certain way... and they don't/won't. You have to re-learn where your fingers actually are, and even that changes over time.
I was never very good at sharpening freehand as a youngster, but then I was never properly taught and the materials - good quality stones etc., weren't available to me.
So I use my own variant of scary sharp and jigs, but it's for two reasons: firstly it helps when you can't grip easily or fumble - you don't wreck an edge you've been working. Secondly, I'm still learning, and jigs let me change a little at a time. Freehand there are simply too many variables for me to learn where I'm going wrong. Maybe it would be different if I had an expert looking over my shoulder, but I don't.
And I don't find scary sharp slow or expensive. When the alternative risks screwing up and having to start again, I'm happy to spend a couple of seconds fitting a chisel into an Eclipse jig, and then touching it up to a properly sharp edge.
Using a jig doesn't make me a better sharpener. It makes me an efficient one.
FWIW, I also have a wet grindstone of the Tormek style. Once in a blue moon I have managed to get a plane iron or chisel dry-shaving sharp from it, but I'm blowed if I know how I did it. I've read-up on the things, watched the videos, bought the grading stones, etc. And the cure-all complex jigs for tricky things (most of which simply don't deliver - more fool me!). I know how to use the leather honing wheel side, too. But sometimes it all works and sometimes it doesn't and, crucially, I can't get it to be consistent.
Waste of money? Not really, because it's handy and quick for getting a good basic shape to a tool, but I find that is its best use. And I can use it for restoring things like kitchen knives when the edge has been wrecked through misuse (and being cheap steel, usually!).
Scary sharp isn't complicated. It's really simple - flat surface, go down through the grits using a jig. Anyone can do it, AND get really good results first-go.
I have to say, I've looked at some of the posh jigs, Veritas notably. Neat ideas, but a hundred quid's worth*? Honestly???
The eclipse does it for me 95% of the time. There a couple of weird cases - skewed blades for side rebate planes and gouges, for example, where it can't ever work, and others (heavy mortice chisels), where things won't fit reliably, but otherwise it's wonderful, even for cambered blades. Not having a linisher, I struggle with doing gouges, and those I do indeed attempt freehand. But they're nothing like as sharp as they probably could be.
With due deference to both David C. and Peter S., if 'twere me, I'd teach scary sharp first**. This is simply because the student then learns what a suitably sharp edge actually is, and that they really can do it for themselves. That boosted my confidence enormously. And I now know what I'm looking for when I experiment with other methods.
Everyone's mileage, etc.
E.
*by the time you've got all the options/accessories, essential add-ons, etc.
** the may well do that - I don't know.
bugbear
Established Member
Eric The Viking":2xb4vj29 said:
Agreed - in principle - but as long as long as a decent sequence of particle sizes is available, be they diamond, SiC paper, oil stones or waterstones, the abrasive doesn't really matter.
Of course, for a beginner at home SiC paper is by far the cheapest initial means to a suitable sequence of grits; in the workshop of a class, other possibilities might be provided.
BugBear
Personally I'd teach the two stone method. Actually one stone and the grinder. Simple, you only have to buy the one stone and you have access to something that will take out serious nicks. I also use the grinder to reform old files into knives and little cutting blades from worn needle files etc.
Oh and it suits both freehand and jigs too. SIC paper is cheap to start. In the long run it will work out very expensive but obviously depends how much woodworking one actually does. For a professional the paper is an expensive method of sharpening.
Oh and it suits both freehand and jigs too. SIC paper is cheap to start. In the long run it will work out very expensive but obviously depends how much woodworking one actually does. For a professional the paper is an expensive method of sharpening.
Trafalgar
Established Member
David Savage on the whole matter:
http://www.finefurnituremaker.com/bespoke-furniture/
SHARPENING... AGAIN! MERCIFUL HEAVEN!
OK so i'll dip my toe in this murky pool. But only because my buddy on the blog asked me to do it. He says "How do you sharpen Japanese chisels?" Well the answer is really pretty much the same way you sharpen European blades. We begin with getting the back of the blade absolutely flat. We use a one eighty wet and dry abrasive on a dead flat granite surface. Followed by three hundred then one thousand then six thousand grit Japanese water stones. Keeping the Japanese water stones dead flat in this process is absolutely of paramount importance.
THE PREPARATION
Why do we bother getting the back of the blade flat? Well it's to make sure that you have absolute contact with those sharpening stones. The most important part is when you're working is the corner of the blade. That seems to do 90% of all work. Especially when pairing, chopping's another matter. So get that back flat, polished and shiny. If you can hold it away at arms length and see your eyeball a yard away then it is about right. If you can't then something's wrong.
THE GRIND
Next we grind our blades to twenty-five degrees. This is a general all round all purpose grinding angle. Pairing chisels maybe ground slightly lower and chopping blades slightly higher. But this is the general all purpose. Grinding we do on a Tormek water stone, or, if you know what you're doing, on a bench grinder. We don't use slowed down special grinders but we do form the surface of the grindstone with a diamond stone to a slight dome. So that the stone is only cutting one spot. That way by moving the blade across the grindstone we can keep the edge cool. Our grinder is also setup with a workshop made tool rest which just helps us locate the tool and present it cleanly to the grindstone and move it around easily in front of the stone.
HONING THE MICRO BEVEL
The Japanese hone the entire surface and most of the Japanese blades are ground at an angle of thirty degrees. This is too high for Western work and I think honing the whole of that surface is a waste of time. We just hone a micro bevel on the front like we do all our European blades. We hone without honing guides, again, because of speed. I know this is fighting talk but at Rowden we wouldn't employ anybody who has to use a honing guide to sharpen blades.
NO TRAINING WHEELS AT ROWDEN
It's a different matter, however, if you're not doing this work to earn your living, then just don't worry about it, take your time, use what jigs you need and get it right.
Honing we do on a one thousand grit Japanese water stone and then we're just pulling to turn a burr. That burr is then polished off by honing with probably a four thousand or six thousand grit water stone. I doubt if we took it any further at this point for a chisel. Japanese plane irons maybe we take it to a finer grit maybe ten or twelve thousand. But a chisel, four or six thousand seems to be OK. [seems backwards to me, but who am I?]
LITTLE AND OFTEN
The essence of the technique is little and often. We don't worry too much about buying chisels that hold their edge forever because our attitude in this workshop is to, when your concentration breaks after ten or fifteen minutes of detailed work, you raise your eyes from the bench, blink and just walk over to the sharpening bench. [YES! THIS!] Touch up that blade in your hand. The blade never gets blunt. You're always keeping it in that really sharp, keen area. Sharpening in this context takes a minute, minute and a half. Don't begrudge doing it little and often.
Have a great day!
David
Rowden Farm workshops, Shebbear, Devon, EX21 5RE, UNITED KINGDOM
http://www.finefurnituremaker.com/bespoke-furniture/
SHARPENING... AGAIN! MERCIFUL HEAVEN!
OK so i'll dip my toe in this murky pool. But only because my buddy on the blog asked me to do it. He says "How do you sharpen Japanese chisels?" Well the answer is really pretty much the same way you sharpen European blades. We begin with getting the back of the blade absolutely flat. We use a one eighty wet and dry abrasive on a dead flat granite surface. Followed by three hundred then one thousand then six thousand grit Japanese water stones. Keeping the Japanese water stones dead flat in this process is absolutely of paramount importance.
THE PREPARATION
Why do we bother getting the back of the blade flat? Well it's to make sure that you have absolute contact with those sharpening stones. The most important part is when you're working is the corner of the blade. That seems to do 90% of all work. Especially when pairing, chopping's another matter. So get that back flat, polished and shiny. If you can hold it away at arms length and see your eyeball a yard away then it is about right. If you can't then something's wrong.
THE GRIND
Next we grind our blades to twenty-five degrees. This is a general all round all purpose grinding angle. Pairing chisels maybe ground slightly lower and chopping blades slightly higher. But this is the general all purpose. Grinding we do on a Tormek water stone, or, if you know what you're doing, on a bench grinder. We don't use slowed down special grinders but we do form the surface of the grindstone with a diamond stone to a slight dome. So that the stone is only cutting one spot. That way by moving the blade across the grindstone we can keep the edge cool. Our grinder is also setup with a workshop made tool rest which just helps us locate the tool and present it cleanly to the grindstone and move it around easily in front of the stone.
HONING THE MICRO BEVEL
The Japanese hone the entire surface and most of the Japanese blades are ground at an angle of thirty degrees. This is too high for Western work and I think honing the whole of that surface is a waste of time. We just hone a micro bevel on the front like we do all our European blades. We hone without honing guides, again, because of speed. I know this is fighting talk but at Rowden we wouldn't employ anybody who has to use a honing guide to sharpen blades.
NO TRAINING WHEELS AT ROWDEN
It's a different matter, however, if you're not doing this work to earn your living, then just don't worry about it, take your time, use what jigs you need and get it right.
Honing we do on a one thousand grit Japanese water stone and then we're just pulling to turn a burr. That burr is then polished off by honing with probably a four thousand or six thousand grit water stone. I doubt if we took it any further at this point for a chisel. Japanese plane irons maybe we take it to a finer grit maybe ten or twelve thousand. But a chisel, four or six thousand seems to be OK. [seems backwards to me, but who am I?]
LITTLE AND OFTEN
The essence of the technique is little and often. We don't worry too much about buying chisels that hold their edge forever because our attitude in this workshop is to, when your concentration breaks after ten or fifteen minutes of detailed work, you raise your eyes from the bench, blink and just walk over to the sharpening bench. [YES! THIS!] Touch up that blade in your hand. The blade never gets blunt. You're always keeping it in that really sharp, keen area. Sharpening in this context takes a minute, minute and a half. Don't begrudge doing it little and often.
Have a great day!
David
Rowden Farm workshops, Shebbear, Devon, EX21 5RE, UNITED KINGDOM
iNewbie
Established Member
CStanford":hm0z9j77 said:
One training wheel then...
This is such a circular argument. The amount of time the "go freehand" crowd spend posting about it they waste -in my eyes- as much time as the crowd who use a jig -in their eyes. :mrgreen:
Whatever works for you.
MIGNAL":25pon2cu said:
Washita...easiest way to hone.
Two stones is fine, though. Any more than that suggests that someone is working more metal than they should (or perhaps sticking with tradition like sharpening the entire bevel on japanese tools).
I only use three stones when I restore a straight razor, and that is FAR more demanding of perfection in scratch removal.
(but washita and a strop is something I could teach just about anyone, and the stone is impervious to damage and requires extremely little maintenance - wipe it off once in a while, that's it).
swagman
Established Member
We hone without honing guides, again, because of speed. I know this is fighting talk but at Rowden we wouldn't employ anybody who has to use a honing guide to sharpen blades.
NO TRAINING WHEELS AT ROWDEN
I am at a loss to understand why someone would purposely choose to include this type of content.
Stewie;
NO TRAINING WHEELS AT ROWDEN
I am at a loss to understand why someone would purposely choose to include this type of content.
Stewie;
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
Could start another hare here - but in fact training wheels for bikes are deprecated - they can have completely the wrong effect and actually de-stabilise the rider. They can make things more difficult. I speak as parent, grandparent of a large mob of cyclists!phil.p":3eoh7av1 said:
Honing jig is strikingly similar!
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
Wrong.iNewbie":3hxwgyu1 said:
I could freehand perfectly well - I learnt it at school. But like a lot of people I was seduced by the promise of "progress, new improved levels of precision etc etc only obtainable with a jig". It took some years to realise that this was a delusion and in fact led to a whole rake of other problems. The only advantage being those trim looking precise bevels, which don't of themselves constitute sharpness.
Corneel
Established Member
You put small children on a bike with training wheels when you are too lazy yourself to help them learn bicycling. Usually you put them on the bike like that when they are still too young and don't have the motorics yet for sometghing diffcult like that. Then they grow older, their brain works better and suddenly you must get of your butt, run behind them for an afternoon or two and they have the skill wired. The trainings wheels have had no purpose, apart from the entertainment value in the meantime.
It's funny, the discussion is not about technical arguments pro or contra a jig. It is all about feelings, psychology and maybe even politics.
It's funny, the discussion is not about technical arguments pro or contra a jig. It is all about feelings, psychology and maybe even politics.
iNewbie
Established Member
Jacob":2retwmfz said:
Perfectly well? Jacob, having read your previous post I find it hard to believe you had your Freehand sharpening down so good. Why follow a Pied Piper when you've got the edge.
Previous post: "When I first rediscovered freehand sharpening some years back (having been tempted down the jig route for a number of frustrating years) I was so pleased I sharpened absolutely everything I could lay my hands on; 100 or more items including dragging out boxes of old chisels and planes never to be used. Didn't take long!
I still keep finding them - many of them unused, neglected but still surprisingly sharp.
If you can do one chisel well theres no need to practice on 99 or more...
Corneel. Its all about the humour for me. :wink:
Corneel
Established Member
iNewbie":ww87y9vw said:
We can shake hands then.
iNewbie
Established Member
/lifts left trouser leg.
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
Good question - the answer was promises of even greater perfection!iNewbie":ktk16a5j said:
The eureka moment on the road re-discover was noticing the rounded bevels on so many old chisels and plane blades, including the Japanese. It occurred to me that they couldn't all be wrong. 10 minutes later I discovered that they were right! :lol:
Previously I'd been hung up a bit on the two bevel system, which is a bit finicky as well as being utterly pointless. The rounded bevel isn't that much different - the edge is 30º (or whatever you chose) but the rounded bevel behind dips in a curve instead of being in two distinct parts. This makes it much easier to grind and/or hone - you just dip the handle as you go.
At which point I got over enthusiastic and sharpened everything in sight!
lurker
Le dullard de la commune
This thread is 10 months old and has 119 replies
the last useless 110 just repeating the first useful 8
the last useless 110 just repeating the first useful 8
