Sharpening chisels/planes

[D_W]

By the way I don't endorse any of it, some of it on that channel is lethal! It's just "evidence" of extreme variation of method.

Looks like a pro to me, by the way. With chinese influence in how he works (using the side of the hammer, flicking the chips out of the mitered finger joint cut, etc).

I wish I could make planes with that kind of swiftness.

Agree, although there is a crazy clip with circular saw blade!!! The dovetail waste chopping is nice and tidy though as are many of the others. They are clearly experienced people.

I'll have to watch some of their videos this evening, I only watched the finger joints and the sawing of the multi-tenon boards.

My relatives did risky things, and it wasn't uncommon to know several folks who grew up in the depression era who were missing fingers, etc (when I was a kid, they're all dead now), but the next generation was much more safety conscious.

 

[MIGNAL]

just taught my 16 year old nephew how to sharpen a 2" plane blade. Hand crank first. OK he had a little difficulty in moving the blade whilst turning the crank, he was getting there though. Then on to the 8,000G waterstone. I showed him the basic technique ie. position both hands/fingers, find the bevel, up a few degrees, back/forward strokes. Left him to it.
After a minute or so I inspected the micro bevel. Perfect! Got him to remove any burr on the back. On to the leather strop. Keep it on the main bevel, pull back. Left him to it. Did about 10 strokes.
Then I did the hair test. It shaved hair!
Took less than 10 minutes. He's never used a plane or chisel in his life.
How hard can it be?

Now find some one with a disability and do the same!

Why does ONE person doing something under supervision make it achievable for everybody?

Such a lot of discrimination on this thread, its unbelievable!

Pete

Stop writing sht!
Where did I state that it did? I just related what I did and the outcome of someone who had never done it before. If you don't like the result, tough.

 

[Jacob]

just taught my 16 year old nephew how to sharpen a 2" plane blade. Hand crank first. OK he had a little difficulty in moving the blade whilst turning the crank, he was getting there though. Then on to the 8,000G waterstone. I showed him the basic technique ie. position both hands/fingers, find the bevel, up a few degrees, back/forward strokes. Left him to it.
After a minute or so I inspected the micro bevel. Perfect! Got him to remove any burr on the back. On to the leather strop. Keep it on the main bevel, pull back. Left him to it. Did about 10 strokes.
Then I did the hair test. It shaved hair!
Took less than 10 minutes. He's never used a plane or chisel in his life.
How hard can it be?

Now find some one with a disability and do the same!

Why does ONE person doing something under supervision make it achievable for everybody?

Such a lot of discrimination on this thread, its unbelievable!

Pete

Stop writing sht!
Where did I state that it did? I just related what I did and the outcome of someone who had never done it before. If you don't like the result, tough.

Well yes. In fact normal freehand sharpening would probably be easier for most disabilities. Less faffing about, fewer things to hold etc.

 

[Racers]

just taught my 16 year old nephew how to sharpen a 2" plane blade. Hand crank first. OK he had a little difficulty in moving the blade whilst turning the crank, he was getting there though. Then on to the 8,000G waterstone. I showed him the basic technique ie. position both hands/fingers, find the bevel, up a few degrees, back/forward strokes. Left him to it.
After a minute or so I inspected the micro bevel. Perfect! Got him to remove any burr on the back. On to the leather strop. Keep it on the main bevel, pull back. Left him to it. Did about 10 strokes.
Then I did the hair test. It shaved hair!
Took less than 10 minutes. He's never used a plane or chisel in his life.
How hard can it be?

Now find some one with a disability and do the same!

Why does ONE person doing something under supervision make it achievable for everybody?

Such a lot of discrimination on this thread, its unbelievable!

Pete

Stop writing sht!
Where did I state that it did? I just related what I did and the outcome of someone who had never done it before. If you don't like the result, tough.

See the hi-lighted in red bit, for some people its hard.

Pete

 

[MIGNAL]

So? They are perfectly free to ignore my post. Of course I can't cover every single eventuality, I didn't intend to and I perfectly understand that certain conditions may or will necessitate the use of a completely different approach. I haven't got a problem with that. I haven't got a problem with anyone using a guide, that's their free choice. I was just relating how easy it was to teach someone (a rank beginner) to sharpen a blade freehand using the two (or rather one) stone method. If he can do it, I'm pretty certain that the vast majority of folk can.
I never suggested that the method was compulsory. I'll try the experiment with another rank beginner, his sister. I suspect she will pick it up very fast. As a test I once got her to use a dovetail saw, sawing to a line. It was like she had been using one for years! I later worked out why she seemed so accomplished yet a few of the guys, who were older than her, were so incompetent. Their approach was completely different. Their approach was hard, rigid, lot's of effort. After all, they were sawing wood and in their heads they had decided that it was difficult, something that required lots of effort and sweat. Her approach was soft, careful, relaxed. That might be a lesson on how to teach freehand sharpening, sawing and all manner of other tasks. Hold things overly tight, too tense, rigid and things become so much more difficult. In fact almost impossible in some cases. It's no different to watching anyone who is very accomplished at fine motor tasks, they make it look easy. It is, once you learn the method and the approach.

 

[Jacob]

The main thing is to disregard the endless repetition of the notion that it's difficult.
It isn't difficult, it's dead easy.
OK some unfortunates will have a disability prob but that's the case with all/any activities which are really easy for most of us. We recognise this and aren't suggesting they can do things which are self evidently impossible for the few.
But I still think freehand will be easier for many e.g. arthritis sufferers; jigs are a bugger to hold. It's always been a mystery to me why they don't have handles. Such a stupidly obvious omission.

 

[Corneel]

Back when I used a jig I was in fact quite capable to sharpen freehand after I used the grinder. That wasn't ever a problem at all. Grind a hollow, drop the chisel on the stone, resting on the hollow with a slight bias towards the edge and rub it back and forth until you get a wire edge. Despite my attachment to the jig, it never was a problem. What was a problem for me back then was some kind of mental block, ideas about "accuracy" and "repeatability". I just didn't understand how to rehone the chisel without going back to the grinder each time.

Reality, when I finally got my act together, was utterly simple. Do the same, but when the hollow shrinks it takes a bit longer until the wire edge appears. Fine polishing I do the same way but at a slightly higher angle again. It is not an "accurate" method at all. I have no idea what angle my chisels have, somewhere around 30 degrees I guess. Point is, it doesn't matter. "Repeatability" isn't a problem either, the wire edge tells me all I need to know.

I know Jacob uses a different freehand method. More power to you Jacob, but I like to take to the grinder from time to time and take advantage of the hollow.

 

[okeydokey]

I find that one of the diamond DMT Whetstones are really good and easier to use than a traditional oilstone. After that I go to wet and dry on a piece of glass starting about 600 and going higher if you want a real polish, but whether its really much sharper ? after going to a high grit wet and ?

 

[MIGNAL]

The grinder/one stone method is probably the easiest method to use, although I will admit that a hand crank does take some practice. The actual stone takes very little practice. Once you get the method the actual removal of metal is very, very little. That stone can be an 8,000G waterstone, even one as fine as that works. I don't even feel for a wire edge, never have. I just polish it on the 8,000 and then strop. It never fails.

 

[MIGNAL]

I find that one of the diamond DMT Whetstones are really good and easier to use than a traditional oilstone. After that I go to wet and dry on a piece of glass starting about 600 and going higher if you want a real polish, but whether its really much sharper ? after going to a high grit wet and ?

I think you will find the law of diminishing returns sets in. 8,000 and higher probably gets you the ultimate edge. It's not necessary for a lot of work though. Sometimes I use the medium on my diamond stone, which is 600G. Actually it might be 800 or even 1,000G now that it's some 3 years old. The one dislike I have for fine waterstones is pre wetting it (allowing time to soak in) and using the nagura stone. The diamond stone is a bit less fuss free, although I've never had one of the finer diamond stones.

 

[swagman]

While reading the thread started by Corneel india-stone-question-t97703.html I noticed a comment by CC that I think is quite relevant to the current discussion on freehand versus a honing jig.

There just isn't a 'right' answer. However, there will be an answer that suits each individual and their particular set of circumstances. Don't let anybody tell you that one way is better than another - it may be for them, but it may not be for you.

 

[D_W]

Stewie, that may be a feelgood answer, because it seems inclusive and pleasing to all, but I doubt in the days when people did a significant amount of work with hand tools that their methods differed by much, and I doubt there were many people who couldn't learn freehand. Some may have taken longer than others, but they wouldn't have had guides to hide behind.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Stewie, that may be a feelgood answer, because it seems inclusive and pleasing to all, but I doubt in the days when people did a significant amount of work with hand tools that their methods differed by much, and I doubt there were many people who couldn't learn freehand. Some may have taken longer than others, but they wouldn't have had guides to hide behind.

Back in the early 19th century, they didn't have artificial oilstones or jigs. They got on with it using what they had, because that's all they had.

Back in the early 20th century, they didn't have diamond stones or lapping films, and water stones were pretty well unknown in the West. They'd pretty much ditched the Charnley Forests and Turkey stones because man-made Nortons cut faster, and they could use one of a number of polishing stones if they needed a better edge. (See 'The Village Carpenter' by Walter Rose for details of this assertion.)

Now, we have (comparatively) a much wider choice. Small, relatively cheap bench grinders, all manner of honing media from natural and man-made Waterstones, oilstones, ceramic stones, diamond stones, diamond pastes on lapping plates, lapping films and abrasive papers, several types and designs of jig, and heaven knows what else.

There ain't no law saying which of those you have to use. It's up to the individual. You tell us (frequently, and repeatedly) that you like a Ouchita stone used freehand - great! You've got a solution that works for you. I've got my India and my Welsh slate - works for me. But the next person may have a different set of problems, and feel happier with a different answer. That's fine - we have choice - more than woodworkers have ever had before; so let's take advantage of it!

 

[Trafalgar]

I have a nice selection of stones but what I now end up doing 98% of the time is using a fine India and then a hard rubber 'strop' (really functioning as a very fine stone) with AlOx powder. A less than $40 solution had I not bought the other stones that essentially now go unused. I still have an Eclipse jig that occasionally comes out if a rebate plane iron starts to get a little wonky. I certainly don't worry about ruining a stone that would cost less than $20 to replace if I shopped around.

For freehand honing I haven't found anything faster than this combination. The fine India raises a burr almost immediately, the AlOx charged strop removes the burr and polishes about as fast. You can even do a little 'tip up' on the strop to polish the back right at the edge and not create a discernible back bevel (chisels, plane irons, everything). In any event if one starts to creep in the fast-cutting fine India obliterates it the next time around.

 

[D_W]

Stewie, that may be a feelgood answer, because it seems inclusive and pleasing to all, but I doubt in the days when people did a significant amount of work with hand tools that their methods differed by much, and I doubt there were many people who couldn't learn freehand. Some may have taken longer than others, but they wouldn't have had guides to hide behind.

Back in the early 19th century, they didn't have artificial oilstones or jigs. They got on with it using what they had, because that's all they had.

Back in the early 20th century, they didn't have diamond stones or lapping films, and water stones were pretty well unknown in the West. They'd pretty much ditched the Charnley Forests and Turkey stones because man-made Nortons cut faster, and they could use one of a number of polishing stones if they needed a better edge. (See 'The Village Carpenter' by Walter Rose for details of this assertion.)

Now, we have (comparatively) a much wider choice. Small, relatively cheap bench grinders, all manner of honing media from natural and man-made Waterstones, oilstones, ceramic stones, diamond stones, diamond pastes on lapping plates, lapping films and abrasive papers, several types and designs of jig, and heaven knows what else.

There ain't no law saying which of those you have to use. It's up to the individual. You tell us (frequently, and repeatedly) that you like a Ouchita stone used freehand - great! You've got a solution that works for you. I've got my India and my Welsh slate - works for me. But the next person may have a different set of problems, and feel happier with a different answer. That's fine - we have choice - more than woodworkers have ever had before; so let's take advantage of it!

Waterstones were common in the west. They were sold as razor hones, and there were attempts by the razor hone manufacturers to sell bench stone sized hones that were very similar to current "ceramic" stones, with an alumina abrasive and a resin binder of some sort. They were mid-grit stones all the way to something similar to a current shapton 1 micron stone.

Everyone in any industry had easy access to lapidary supply (but generally only used something like that for razors or carving tools) and everyone had access to silicon carbide stones in the early 1900s.

A lot of silicone carbide stones were sold, not many large razor hone style stones (though some did), but the washita and hard arkansas stones didn't really stop selling until hand tool woodworking was almost completely dead. That's probably about the same time gadgets started coming on the market, because carpenters and amateurs who used hand tools infrequently became the market. India stones and coarse carborundum stones fill in the bottom of the range in terms of grit and speed (arkansas stones don't generally cut fast unless they are roughed up often), and probably gained popularity when people stopped finishing work with planes and card scrapers.

I doubt anyone on this forum has used more honing media than I have, I'm aware of all of it. I like to fiddle with it, it's entertaining. But it's not productive, and none of the modern media is any significant improvement over india/washita/hard arkansas. If it was, the intention to try to sell the same thing to professionals in the early 1900s wouldn't have fallen flat on its face. It needed a supply of beginners looking try to buy a skill rather than attain it - the professional market couldn't supply that demand.

Certainly, there's no need to use a washita stone - that's my favorite, and it was in droves when people did work and cared about time, but they're not easy for a beginner to procure and they don't make sense with a guide. It's the method that you use with them that is translatable to other stones.

Out of curiosity last week, I bought a stone for one dollar at the dollar store (I was surprised to see a two sided sharpening stone for a dollar, and I sort of hope the dollar store theme isn't popular elsewhere - though it does have some virtues for things like greeting cards). The same day, I bought a huge okudo suita, it was more than a dollar. I intentionally sharpened a chisel on the dollar stone, and dursol on mdf (similar to autosol), and then stropped it until it would catch and sever a hanging hair. The idea that somehow all of the modern media is an improvement over perfecting the skill is popular with the retailers, I guess.

Every sharpening method I've tried is one that works. The modern methods create more complications than solving problems. It's like those things that are intended for people to sharpen knives, they've got arms coming out in all directions and a bunch of settings to adjust and they take special small sized stones that are useless for anything else. Someone new to the game is probably excited to find that they can put a knife in one, follow the directions and eventually come up with a sharp knife. If they have to sharpen a knife 300 times over a year, I doubt they'll think it's so interesting.

 

[D_W]

I have a nice selection of stones but what I now end up doing 98% of the time is using a fine India and then a hard rubber 'strop' (really functioning as a very fine stone) with AlOx powder. A less than $40 solution had I not bought the other stones that essentially now go unused. I still have an Eclipse jig that occasionally comes out if a rebate plane iron starts to get a little wonky. I certainly don't worry about ruining a stone that would cost less than $20 to replace if I shopped around.

For freehand honing I haven't found anything faster than this combination. The fine India raises a burr almost immediately, the AlOx charged strop removes the burr and polishes about as fast. You can even do a little 'tip up' on the strop to polish the back right at the edge and not create a discernible back bevel (chisels, plane irons, everything). In any event if one starts to creep in the fast-cutting fine India obliterates it the next time around.

One can't criticize that method at all.

 

[Trafalgar]

It works like a charm.

 

[lurker]

Little gloat:
Some of us are still using Charnley (Charnwood) Forest stones because some of us (well one of us :mrgreen: ) have exclusive access to the fabled Whittle hill quarry 8)

 

[D_W]

Little gloat:
Some of us are still using Charnley (Charnwood) Forest stones because some of us (well one of us :mrgreen: ) have exclusive access to the fabled Whittle hill quarry 8)

I am doing my part to make sure the good (unusual/large/older) washita stones are repatriated to the states here, so you've got to have something to use after they're gone!!

It looks like the slates (other than water of ayr) still come from there in quantity.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

*chuckle*

Back in Walter Rose's day, craftsmen couldn't give away Charney Forest stones (previously avidly sought after) when the new man-made oilstones became available.

Now, when a genuine Charnley comes up on Ebay, the bidding goes mental for it!

Funny old world, innit?