Sharpening chisels/planes

[D_W]

The interesting part of this is finding the text from the 1940s, using it as a defense to not grow out of using guides. If you can't, you can't, and that's what the text says....but it doesn't say..."hey, just use a guide". It suggests that some people find that they can't go without a guide and they need to go back to it or pay someone to sharpen tools for them.

That's different than suggesting use of a guide. It's suggesting freehand unless you find you can't after making a legitimate effort at it.

 

[bugbear]

rounded bevels on so many old chisels and plane blades, including the Japanese.

I've demolished (with actual evidence, not repeated assertions) your claim that the Japanese normally use (and aim for) rounded bevels before.

I'll just link to it, instead of repeating it.

post788026.html?hilit=%20flat%20bevels%20stick#p788026

So please do everybody the small respect of not repeating a demonstrably unsupported claim unless you have new evidence.

BugBear

 

[swagman]

The interesting part of this is finding the text from the 1940s, using it as a defense to not grow out of using guides. If you can't, you can't, and that's what the text says....but it doesn't say..."hey, just use a guide". It suggests that some people find that they can't go without a guide and they need to go back to it or pay someone to sharpen tools for them.

That's different than suggesting use of a guide. It's suggesting freehand unless you find you can't after making a legitimate effort at it.

Caveat; Whether one chooses to freehand sharpen or rely on a honing guide is a matter of personal choice. For the vast number of woodworkers who are restricted to the weekend only to refine their woodwork skills, the shorter learning curb needed to master a honing jig, compared to that of freehand sharpening, does make the honing jig alternative a much more practical solution..

 

[Jacob]

rounded bevels on so many old chisels and plane blades, including the Japanese.

I've demolished (with actual evidence, not repeated assertions) your claim that the Japanese normally use (and aim for) rounded bevels before.

I'll just link to it, instead of repeating it.

post788026.html?hilit=%20flat%20bevels%20stick#p788026

So please do everybody the small respect of not repeating a demonstrably unsupported claim unless you have new evidence.

BugBear

Seen 'em.
Seen Japanese woodworker using them, here and in Japan.
Have seen them on woodwork forums where the new owner of an old chisel is moaning about the "incorrect" rounded bevel - as though the previous owner was an silly person. (I think it was woodbloke, can't track it down now).

But the substantive argument for rounded bevels is that they were/are used universally and exclusively by almost everybody using edge tools and sharpening them by hand (as distinct from machine) - except the new sharpeners, who think they know better. :lol:

 

[D_W]

That's not correct. I rarely do more than a few hours per week of woodworking, and usually only on the weekends.

Jigs and guides are advertised as a way to get to things quicker, and they probably are for initial working, but unless one is really challenged by the method (freehand), they are more cumbersome after a very short period of learning. Two things go hand in hand, one is accurate (and quick) grinding, and the second is honing what's left that the grinder doesn't do.

I think it does a disservice to people who want to do more than work a smooth plane to get them stuck on guides. It creates ridiculous constrictions when they want to expand (gouges, narrow chisels, skew irons).

Skew irons and narrow chisels are front and center at this because there is so much fluff on the forums about what guide will do them, and they are a twaddle to sharpen freehand (for different reasons). The sole of a skew plane tells you all you need to know about honing the iron. It takes longer to learn to use the equipment to do those things than it does to learn to do them freehand. Sight the sole, see if the iron is even, if it is, hone it evenly. If it's not, hone a little more on the side that is too proud of the sole. Except that once you learn that simple skill, there really is never part of it that gets very proud of the sole.

The whole world of vintage tools opens up to you because you don't sit around and worry about whether or not the skew angle is 24 degrees or 29, or "how did someone use this shoulder plane when the iron isn't bedded perfectly square".

All of those skills are right in the same ball park as basic fitting, but the desire is to teach beginners paint by number for everything instead of teaching them to use their hands and eyes, and teaching them to fit work rather than follow a method blindly.

 

[Peter Sefton]

This thread is 10 months old and has 119 replies
the last useless 110 just repeating the first useful 8

What's new? Same old same old.

Are this is new https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DcjCM_-GDM

 

[D_W]

rounded bevels on so many old chisels and plane blades, including the Japanese.

I've demolished (with actual evidence, not repeated assertions) your claim that the Japanese normally use (and aim for) rounded bevels before.

I'll just link to it, instead of repeating it.

post788026.html?hilit=%20flat%20bevels%20stick#p788026

So please do everybody the small respect of not repeating a demonstrably unsupported claim unless you have new evidence.

BugBear

Whether they use rounded or flat is inconsistent. I've bought a gaggle of old (japanese) tools that were in use by professionals (and they were sharp) and most do not have a perfectly flat bevel on them unless they are unused and the bevel left from the large-diameter grinding wheel (from manufacture) is still on them.

I've never gotten a used chisel that had a perfectly flat bevel on it, regardless of what bloggers and youtube video makers do now.

There's someone with quite a large number of videos on youtube, a guitar maker, and he works the flat bevel - laboriously - for 7 or 8 minutes for each tool he sharpens. But even when he turns the iron over, the bevel is in two facets and he's only working part of the bevel - the top half is relieved at a shallower angle.

I still sharpen a flat bevel because it looks nicer, but I make a microthin microbevel on the end because it speeds up work by avoiding chipout that will occur if the chisels are left in mid 20s bevel angles - especially if the chisels are used for something heavy. I have had discussions with people in japan who do the same thing, and someone relayed to me that So yamashita does the same thing (despite the fact that he's pretty rigorous sharpening).

 

[MIGNAL]

just taught my 16 year old nephew how to sharpen a 2" plane blade. Hand crank first. OK he had a little difficulty in moving the blade whilst turning the crank, he was getting there though. Then on to the 8,000G waterstone. I showed him the basic technique ie. position both hands/fingers, find the bevel, up a few degrees, back/forward strokes. Left him to it.
After a minute or so I inspected the micro bevel. Perfect! Got him to remove any burr on the back. On to the leather strop. Keep it on the main bevel, pull back. Left him to it. Did about 10 strokes.
Then I did the hair test. It shaved hair!
Took less than 10 minutes. He's never used a plane or chisel in his life.
How hard can it be?

 

[D_W]

just taught my 16 year old nephew how to sharpen a 2" plane blade. Hand crank first. OK he had a little difficulty in moving the blade whilst turning the crank, he was getting there though. Then on to the 8,000G waterstone. I showed him the basic technique ie. position both hands/fingers, find the bevel, up a few degrees, back/forward strokes. Left him to it.
After a minute or so I inspected the micro bevel. Perfect! Got him to remove any burr on the back. On to the leather strop. Keep it on the main bevel, pull back. Left him to it. Did about 10 strokes.
Then I did the hair test. It shaved hair!
Took less than 10 minutes. He's never used a plane or chisel in his life.
How hard can it be?

100% spot on. Most of the old NOS irons I find have a very long shallow primary bevel on them to facilitate doing just that. Lift the tool off of the primary a little bit and hone only a small area of material, flip the iron to work the back and weaken or remove the wire edge, and done.

 

[iNewbie]

This thread is 10 months old and has 119 replies
the last useless 110 just repeating the first useful 8

In woodworking these threads are like 5 loaves and 2 fishes. Its hard too swallow but the trout keep taking it.

 

[D_W]

Guarantee if you put up a thread of some fine work, it will only last a dozen posts or so....


.... unless someone asks about sharpening in it somewhere. Strikes me that on youtube, a lot of the videos of ultra fine work that have been out there for years have relatively few views, but if someone puts up a video about sharpening a chisel with a piece of sandpaper on a brick and says it's for beginners (that's the hook, I guess), it'll get several hundred thousand views and fights will break out in the comments.

 

[G S Haydon]

..........I'm off to find a brick and some sandpaper........

Odate mentions rounding bevels on irons or chisels (I think) that are a touch on the brittle side. Kinda pointless trying to attribute one fixed way to an entire nation. I'll admit it's written as common practice, but you'd need to rub shoulders with people who made stuff there to be sure.
UK books mention mainly secondary bevels, not everyone does it though. Again, difference between books and keyboards or working with a variety of skilled people.

Not sure it's a brick but he uses a concrete block to dress the stones https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXWkuVgiRvk alternative to a diamond plate . Love the mortise skills https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjtHE_QZrdU . I really do, places the chisel quickly, direct and practiced movements. However it's not "by the book" which is often the way. People work in different ways. Worth checking out the other vids, quite a confident pace to all of them! Let's rip some tenons https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd3dBwg9jWY

By the way I don't endorse any of it, some of it on that channel is lethal! It's just "evidence" of extreme variation of method.

 

[D_W]

Nothing wrong with the concrete block for soft stones, for sure. Probably has silica and alumina in it, and it's got plenty of pores (and I'm sure the form for the side is flat).

 

[Jacob]

............... Kinda pointless trying to attribute one fixed way to an entire nation. I'll admit it's written as common practice, but you'd need to rub shoulders with people who made stuff there to be sure......

There isn't a fixed way but there are easy ways and difficult ways.
Producing a flat bevel freehand is more difficult than a relaxed rounded bevel.
Ergo anybody concerned about sharpness and speed is not going to go the difficult way.
So what you find in the vast majority of edge tools world wide and right back to the stone age is rounded bevels.
There are "perfectionists" who think there are "correct" ways of do things, but unless these things have a real advantage most will tend towards the easy way - if they want to use the tool in a hurry!

And slight cambers are easier and more useful:

PS Odate is an interesting writer without a doubt but it doesn't do to extrapolate too far from any writer's particular interpretation.
Many of the odd notions of the "correct" way (DTs at 1/6 and 1/8 for example) are slipped in with the best of intentions but hang around forever, misleading whole generations!

 

[Racers]

just taught my 16 year old nephew how to sharpen a 2" plane blade. Hand crank first. OK he had a little difficulty in moving the blade whilst turning the crank, he was getting there though. Then on to the 8,000G waterstone. I showed him the basic technique ie. position both hands/fingers, find the bevel, up a few degrees, back/forward strokes. Left him to it.
After a minute or so I inspected the micro bevel. Perfect! Got him to remove any burr on the back. On to the leather strop. Keep it on the main bevel, pull back. Left him to it. Did about 10 strokes.
Then I did the hair test. It shaved hair!
Took less than 10 minutes. He's never used a plane or chisel in his life.
How hard can it be?

Now find some one with a disability and do the same!

Why does ONE person doing something under supervision make it achievable for everybody?

Such a lot of discrimination on this thread, its unbelievable!

Pete

 

[D_W]

By the way I don't endorse any of it, some of it on that channel is lethal! It's just "evidence" of extreme variation of method.

Looks like a pro to me, by the way. With chinese influence in how he works (using the side of the hammer, flicking the chips out of the mitered finger joint cut, etc).

I wish I could make planes with that kind of swiftness.

 

[D_W]

Such a lot of discrimination on this thread, its unbelievable!

Generalized talk becomes difficult when generalizations have to be inclusive of everyone. Or more specifically, if you know your in a small minority, lampooning generalizations as being discriminatory against you either suggests you're looking to be offended, or it's a work.

You can comfortably be in the minority of people who can't freehand sharpen for legitimate reason without getting offended when someone shoots a barb that is obviously intended for people who physically can.

 

[Woodmatt]

This sharpening lark is opening up a whole new world.When I was a apprentice some 45 years ago I was taught to sharpen by hand,didn't know about jigs then.I had a India combination stone,Coarse/Fine and I am sure I was only taught to use the coarse side,when the burr had be produced it was one stroke on the back of the blade and the rest removed by stroking the blade across the palm of the hand,similar to how a hairdresser used to stroke the cut throat across his strop and that was it,a supposed sharp blade which I now realize was not sharp at least not in the terms being discussed here.

As it is some 35 years since I was able to do any practical woodwork I have recently tried sharpening blades and seem to produce a very unsatisfactory result.So after reading all the post about freehand sharpening just being a matter of practice and before I buy a jig I spent an hour in my workshop today and by the end I have been able to produced a couple of reasonably sharp chisels bearing in mind I still only have the India combination stone (The original from my apprenticeship).Yet to try a plane blade

So now I have a question bearing in mind the micron sizes on the combination stone (coarse 97/fine35) should I get an in-between stone say an Arkanas hard white stone 14 microns and a strop or just go straight to a strop.

 

[G S Haydon]

By the way I don't endorse any of it, some of it on that channel is lethal! It's just "evidence" of extreme variation of method.

Looks like a pro to me, by the way. With chinese influence in how he works (using the side of the hammer, flicking the chips out of the mitered finger joint cut, etc).

I wish I could make planes with that kind of swiftness.

Agree, although there is a crazy clip with circular saw blade!!! The dovetail waste chopping is nice and tidy though as are many of the others. They are clearly experienced people.

 

[D_W]

This sharpening lark is opening up a whole new world.When I was a apprentice some 45 years ago I was taught to sharpen by hand,didn't know about jigs then.I had a India combination stone,Coarse/Fine and I am sure I was only taught to use the coarse side,when the burr had be produced it was one stroke on the back of the blade and the rest removed by stroking the blade across the palm of the hand,similar to how a hairdresser used to stroke the cut throat across his strop and that was it,a supposed sharp blade which I now realize was not sharp at least not in the terms being discussed here.

As it is some 35 years since I was able to do any practical woodwork I have recently tried sharpening blades and seem to produce a very unsatisfactory result.So after reading all the post about freehand sharpening just being a matter of practice and before I buy a jig I spent an hour in my workshop today and by the end I have been able to produced a couple of reasonably sharp chisels bearing in mind I still only have the India combination stone (The original from my apprenticeship).Yet to try a plane blade

So now I have a question bearing in mind the micron sizes on the combination stone (coarse 97/fine35) should I get an in-between stone say an Arkanas hard white stone 14 microns and a strop or just go straight to a strop.

The arkansas stone should be useful. What's sold as "hard white" (but doesn't show translucence) these days is similar to an older soft arkansas. I don't know why the grit charts show them as 14 microns, as there are no oilstones with particles that large, but there is space between particles on all but the translucent and black stones, and that space is what creates the cutting ability.

If the stone you're thinking of is like I describe (white and fine, but not translucent), then it should be a very good step, and if you let it break in, it will be right on the doorstep of a bright polish - and it will follow an india stone very well.