SawStop, stops on contact with skin is coming to Europe soon!

[AJB Temple]

Manufacturers try to maximise profits shock.

 

[Inspector]

Chipmonk you said "They claimed and fought dozens of patents to ensure the barrier for entry was high and blocked the US market, making it more difficult and less financially sensible for other companies to bring products to market."

Given all the manufacturers rejected licensing the system flat out when it was offered to them, they went making the machines themselves. Not an inexpensive undertaking. Blocking others by enforcing their patents is not wrong and the whole point of the patent system. Big Pharma make SawStop look like amatures.

Now as for the added cost of a SawStop compared to any other table saw in the same class. People keep forgetting in addition to the brake cartridge and associated electrics and electronics the mechanical parts are much more robust and complicated (more parts and of greater precision) than a regular saw which add to the cost. I know because I have had mine since shortly after they were first offered in Canada and I can see and compare it to my earlier saw. It must be kept in mind that just because they look similar to other saws on the outside, it doesn't mean the should cost the same.

You are entitled to your rant but I think getting mad over advertising doesn't add up given the number of companies that have lied about their products that were known to be very harmful to us. The tobacco industry for example.

In time the cost will come down. Until they do lets toss all our push sticks into a big pile at Jacob's place and play a game of pickup sticks.

Pete

 

[Chipmonk]

Chipmonk you said "They claimed and fought dozens of patents to ensure the barrier for entry was high and blocked the US market, making it more difficult and less financially sensible for other companies to bring products to market."

Given all the manufacturers rejected licensing the system flat out when it was offered to them, they went making the machines themselves. Not an inexpensive undertaking. Blocking others by enforcing their patents is not wrong and the whole point of the patent system. Big Pharma make SawStop look like amatures.

Now as for the added cost of a SawStop compared to any other table saw in the same class. People keep forgetting in addition to the brake cartridge and associated electrics and electronics the mechanical parts are much more robust and complicated (more parts and of greater precision) than a regular saw which add to the cost. I know because I have had mine since shortly after they were first offered in Canada and I can see and compare it to my earlier saw. It must be kept in mind that just because they look similar to other saws on the outside, it doesn't mean the should cost the same.

You are entitled to your rant but I think getting mad over advertising doesn't add up given the number of companies that have lied about their products that were known to be very harmful to us. The tobacco industry for example.

In time the cost will come down. Until they do lets toss all our push sticks into a big pile at Jacob's place and play a game of pickup sticks.

Pete

Thanks, good points well made.

I'm not really mad about the advertising, as much as the decades long lack of consideration of the fact that this is a life-saving technology that should be used as a pawn in corporate games of greed and power. The tagline about safety first was just unacceptable to me.

I know, as the genius comic said above: "company wants to make profit shock!", but if we continue to accept being treated like this, we always will. When your kid loses their fingers, you'll feel different, trust me.

 

[Inspector]

Given I have the saw, probably because I never sired any sprogs and could afford it, any using it will be able to give me the finger when I deserve it.

Be safe
Pete

 

[Sideways]

Sorry, I'm not trying to be a hater, but they used the phrase "Your safety is our top priority". That's a flat-out shameless lie.

Of course it is. Pure marketing b*ll*cks.
Actually, I wonder what view the Advertising Standards Agency would take of a pitch like that ?

 

[TRITON]

Ok.
Been trying to choose between the CTS and the jobsite pro models, both for me have their pluses and minuses, especially in a small workshop like my current one.

The CTS is good, because it is small and easy to move about, but i might have probs in finding somewhere for it to live when not in use, so I might have to make up a wheeled unit for it to live on, which is going to impact on valuable space.
The jobsite pro is also obviously going to need somewhere to live, but I like the folding stand it comes with, so it can tuck against a wall when not in use and even at that it's going to take up less space than the CTS sitting on a wheeled unit.
Chances are neither is going to leave the confines of the workshop. And Im not going to be processing pull sheets through the saw, probably better with getting split boards(2400x610)

I've been leaning towards the jobsite pro, basically for the built in stand, but this option I've found on You Tube might be a solution and would allow be to get the smaller lighter CTS

It incorporates a router table but I could swop that out for a benchdog MFT.

In my initial thinking i was intending to make the MFT, plus the wheeled stand for the saw, but this kind of affords me the best of both worlds, and I can adapt the design for smaller/larger/wider with fold up sections. Plus it gives me room underneath for powertool cases, drawers etc

Anyone any other plans or workbenches they've designed/built that incorporates a small saw table ? Love to see them as im great at plagiarizing other peoples stuff


I've no interest in anyone's argument about the merits or philosophy of buying sawstop. Far as im concerned I'll be buying one, and that is that.

 

[Chris West]

The saws are the equal or better than all comparable saws in their category. Manual in very comprehensive and well illustrated. My observations and opinion.

After putting on any fence rails and tables on the bigger saws or removing the packaging on the smaller saws, yes they work straight out of the box. No adjustments needed for the safety mechanisms.

No tinkering, no set up any more than any other new saw.

They are well made and the fit and finish are as good or better than any of the competing saws.

Dust extraction below the table on the ICS (Industrial Cabinet Saw) has a shrouded blade cover that hooks directly to a 4"/100mm port. Above table blade cover port is small like most saws in this arena, better hooked to a shop vac with a HVLP collector below. Like most saws inadequate and needs improvement. My opinion.

Blade change on the ICS is not very different to any cabinet saw.
*Switch off the saw.
*Pull the plug if not hardwired.
*Turn the lockout switch on the saw to off. Padlock it if you like.
*Remove the throat plate.
*Flick the magnetically held door on the side of the dust shroud open for access to the blade nut.
*Flick the riving knife/splitter leaver a quarter turn to open the clamp and remove the riving knife or slitter and guard. Not absolutely necessary but makes for a little more access.
*Use the two provided wrenches to remove the nut and washer.
*Slide off the blade and install the next.
Replace the washer and nut and tighten.
*Check the blade to brake gap, approx 2mm, and adjust the brake with an Allen wrench if required.
*Slip the riving knife/splitter over the dowel pins and flick the leaver to clamp on.
*Close the magnetic dust shroud door.
*Reinstall the throat plate.
*Plug it in.
*Turn the lockout switch on.
*Turn the saw switch on and after it goes through the self check and you have a green light you turn the saw on / off with the paddle.

Pete

I brought a SawStop 10" professional cabinet saw from the states many years ago. It is the workhorse of my shop, I use it frequently. I couldn't be happier with it. Extremely precise, solid and safe. My only caution is to use wooden or plastic mitre saw fences rather than aluminum if at all possible. If you accidently touch an aluminum fence to a spinning blade (silly mistake but it can happen when arbor is tilted, for example), the Saw Stop mechanism will actuate thereby costing you a blade and a SawStop mechanism. Nevertheless it is a great saw with a great rip fence. Crazy to see how long it has taken to get these in Europe.

 

[Jacob]

I brought a SawStop 10" professional cabinet saw from the states many years ago. It is the workhorse of my shop, I use it frequently. I couldn't be happier with it. Extremely precise, solid and safe. My only caution is to use wooden or plastic mitre saw fences rather than aluminum if at all possible. If you accidently touch an aluminum fence to a spinning blade (silly mistake but it can happen when arbor is tilted, for example), the Saw Stop mechanism will actuate thereby costing you a blade and a SawStop mechanism. Nevertheless it is a great saw with a great rip fence. Crazy to see how long it has taken to get these in Europe.

Cheaper and safer to get into the push stick habit.

 

[Inspector]

I brought a SawStop 10" professional cabinet saw from the states many years ago. It is the workhorse of my shop, I use it frequently. I couldn't be happier with it. Extremely precise, solid and safe. My only caution is to use wooden or plastic mitre saw fences rather than aluminum if at all possible. If you accidently touch an aluminum fence to a spinning blade (silly mistake but it can happen when arbor is tilted, for example), the Saw Stop mechanism will actuate thereby costing you a blade and a SawStop mechanism. Nevertheless it is a great saw with a great rip fence. Crazy to see how long it has taken to get these in Europe.

Bin dare done dat Chris. Same happens to one with a regular table saw but instead of a nick in the mitre gauge you take a big enough chunk out that it is no good anymore and you have a damaged blade too. It's a blade and brake replacement cost verses a blade and mitre gauge replacement cost thing. Good aftermarket mitre gauges alone cost a lot more.

In cases like this when you overlook or don't realize the change in an angle adjustment (mitre gauge or blade tilt) will put the tool in the way of the blade all the push sticks in the world won't make a difference Jacob. Or do you use your push sticks to push your mitre gauge or wave them back and forth to magically reset the clearances?

Pete

 

[Jacob]

Bin dare done dat Chris. Same happens to one with a regular table saw but instead of a nick in the mitre gauge you take a big enough chunk out that it is no good anymore and you have a damaged blade too. It's a blade and brake replacement cost verses a blade and mitre gauge replacement cost thing. Good aftermarket mitre gauges alone cost a lot more.

In cases like this when you overlook or don't realize the change in an angle adjustment (mitre gauge or blade tilt) will put the tool in the way of the blade all the push sticks in the world won't make a difference Jacob. Or do you use your push sticks to push your mitre gauge or wave them back and forth to magically reset the clearances?

Pete

Not quite sure what you mean, but if you are pushing a piece through with a mitre fence, past the blade, but feel hands too close, then the push stick answer is to set the piece before the mitre fence (turned around) and push the workpiece up to the fence with a push stick (or two) and push them past the blade together.

 

[Jacob]

Not quite sure what you mean, but if you are pushing a piece through with a mitre fence, past the blade, but feel hands too close, then the push stick answer is to set the piece before the mitre fence (turned around) and push the workpiece up to the fence with a push stick (or two) and push them past the blade together.

and or clamp it to the fence, etc.
In fact I do it as a matter of course - push workpiece up to sliding fence reversed, rather than pushing workpiece through with the fence.
Can't edit my posts in this thread, or insert images? Why is this?

 

[Inspector]

You never seem to get it Jacob. What Chris and I were talking about was when you have your miter gauge set close to the blade for support while cutting at an angle and return it to cut 90º again you may not notice that puts the mitre gauge in a position (in front) to hit the blade. It can also happen if you tilt the blade and don't move the mitre fence away from the blade. In both cases when the blade contacts the mitre gauge even when your hand is at the other end of the mitre gauge the brake will fire the same as though it was a flesh contact. Push sticks would be completely useless in these instances because it has nothing to do with where your hand is. It is a method or procedural mistake in that the operator has missed or forgotten to check clearances of where the tool will cut.

We do use push sticks for all the same cuts you do but they are not an automatic answer for everything like you always have to spout off. When cutting, when moving the saw across the room, when changing the blade, when scratching your back, your answer is alway push sticks even when completely out of context.

Here is a picture of the mitre gauge fence when it was used close to the blade for a 45º mitre and return back to 90º without resetting the fence back from the blade. The nick is the mark left when the blade brake stopped and dropped the blade below the table. I'll add them

Here is a picture of a cut made by a regular table saw that a buddy did. His widow sold me the mitre gauge after his unrelated death.

I can't load pictures either. I'll add them to the thread if it ever gets working again.

Pete

 

[Ed Weber]

You never seem to get it Jacob. What Chris and I were talking about was when you have your miter gauge set close to the blade for support while cutting at an angle and return it to cut 90º again you may not notice that puts the mitre gauge in a position (in front) to hit the blade. It can also happen if you tilt the blade and don't move the mitre fence away from the blade. In both cases when the blade contacts the mitre gauge even when your hand is at the other end of the mitre gauge the brake will fire the same as though it was a flesh contact. Push sticks would be completely useless in these instances because it has nothing to do with where your hand is. It is a method or procedural mistake in that the operator has missed or forgotten to check clearances of where the tool will cut.

We do use push sticks for all the same cuts you do but they are not an automatic answer for everything like you always have to spout off. When cutting, when moving the saw across the room, when changing the blade, when scratching your back, your answer is alway push sticks even when completely out of context.

Here is a picture of the mitre gauge fence when it was used close to the blade for a 45º mitre and return back to 90º without resetting the fence back from the blade. The nick is the mark left when the blade brake stopped and dropped the blade below the table. I'll add them

Here is a picture of a cut made by a regular table saw that a buddy did. His widow sold me the mitre gauge after his unrelated death.

I can't load pictures either. I'll add them to the thread if it ever gets working again.

Pete

With respect;
Everything you just listed can be boiled down to nothing more than poor work habits.
Not checking you clearances, or miter gauge position of forgetting something, etc.
A SS isn't going to make you a more thorough or less forgetful woodworker.
This is like saying, I got a shock because I forgot you shouldn't put you finger in the electrical outlet. A grounded outlet isn't going too save you.

 

[Inspector]

With respect;
Everything you just listed can be boiled down to nothing more than poor work habits.
Not checking you clearances, or miter gauge position of forgetting something, etc.
A SS isn't going to make you a more thorough or less forgetful woodworker.
This is like saying, I got a shock because I forgot you shouldn't put you finger in the electrical outlet. A grounded outlet isn't going too save you.

I don't disagree with that Ed but I do disagree with being told push sticks are the only answer to everything.

Pete

 

[Jacob]

I don't disagree with that Ed but I do disagree with being told push sticks are the only answer to everything.

Pete

No I don't get it from your incoherent rambling description! Looking forward to seeing a diagram.
I'll take Ed's word for it that you are just describing a bad practice.
Push sticks aren't the answer to everything of course, but if used the chances of a cut, from a variety of machines, become vanishingly small.

 

[Amplidyne]

Personally, I'll take good work practice, including the use of push sticks for anything where your hand advances over the table, Guards, controlling pressure where needed, an understanding of how the machines work, and what are the rejection forces at work over any secondary safety device.
Watching YouTube videos, and the TV, these are sadly lacking.

20 years using the machines pretty well every day, and still got all my fingers.
I'd rather not have an accident, than relying on a safety belt to save me thanks.

 

[Jacob]

Just wondered about how effective the SS is. I've seen impressive vids whereby touching it with a sausage stops the blade dead. But what happens if you sweep a bunch of sausages fast into it, like sweeping your hand as if clearing off shavings, but hitting the blade by mistake.
Would it just take off two fingers instead of four?
How quickly does it stop?
n.b. do not try this at home!

 

[Jacob]

Just wondered about how effective the SS is. I've seen impressive vids whereby touching it with a sausage stops the blade dead. But what happens if you sweep a bunch of sausages fast into it, like sweeping your hand as if clearing off shavings, but hitting the blade by mistake.
Would it just take off two fingers instead of four?
How quickly does it stop?
n.b. do not try this at home!

PS still can't edit posts!
Maybe these devices should be rated with a standard sausage test.
I can swing my arm about 5ft easily in one second. This is about 5.5kph.
Maybe a 10kph catapulted bunch of sausages could be the basis of a standard test?

 

[Inspector]

There is a youboob video where a couple guys set the blade a few mm above the table and slapped their hand onto the blade as fast as they could. Brake fired and no blood drawn. If that fast enough? Ultimately you get to decide if you want to have a saw with the technology.

Pete

 

[Ed Weber]

I don't disagree with that Ed but I do disagree with being told push sticks are the only answer to everything.

Pete

They aren't the only answer but they are just as safe and cost less than a SS.
Push sticks keep your digits away from the blade, SS just triggers when you don't

Once again, it's simply two different philosophies when approaching woodworking.
Use safe practices and methods of work to avoid potentially dangerous situations or work as usual and let the machine save you from yourself.