Saw stop ( USA )

[Against_The_Grain]

If it's in your power to ban them it'd also be in your power to talk them into safe practices and liberate them from sawstop dependency!

You try it, see how far you get.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

If it's in your power to ban them it'd also be in your power to talk them into safe practices and liberate them from sawstop dependency!

Over the years it's certainly been within my power "to talk them into safe practices" having taught hundreds of learning woodworkers over the years. Having said that in reality it's been through demonstration and instruction on my part followed by observing the learner's use of the saw and correcting errors in their usage and practices: ideally, corrections are made prior to any actual cutting by the learner. Historically, and currently in the UK SawStop technology is a non-issue so there's never been any kind of dependency to liberate learners from.

On this issue I rather disagree with Against_The_Grain, and it's perfectly possible to try it and be successful. Slainte.

 

[Bruce Mack]

For me the biggest question is always why do people let these table saws cause them so much injury and pain when they are in control of the outcome, it is not the machines decision to hurt you but the simple fact you have decided to let it cause pain, the machine is the innocent party in all this. Saw stop is like buying a dog and then having all it's teeth removed in case you decide to abuse it knowing it cannot bite you.

Having a wonky gait because of a pinched nerve in the back and a right arm tremor because of Parkinson's, I am aware that any woodworking injury could ground me. Consequently I am (or try to be) very cautious in the shop. Though old age makes me more susceptible to injury it also makes me treasure what I have. I think I have the tablesaw relatively fool-proof, with provision for infeed and outfeed rollers when needed, and pushsticks of every design. I am more worried about resawing with the bandsaw because of its small table and the occasional need to support the stock with my hand as it emerges, while continuing to pay attention to stock feed. That said, my most painful injuries have come from my very sharp hand plane irons (don't ask).

 

[Against_The_Grain]

On this issue I rather disagree with Against_The_Grain, and it's perfectly possible to try it and be successful. Slainte.

It’s certainly not impossible, and I wasn’t suggesting that. My point was that the quality of students is much lesser than it once was. In my own experience, Carpentry and Joinery students are much more difficult to teach than Cabinetmaking students as a portion of the Carpentry and Joinery students are purely there as “just something to do” after leaving school whereas the Cabinetmaking students are more focused on the subject they have chosen and generally have much more brainpower.

When you’ve got individuals that will not listen and sometimes even intentionally go against your best advice, there’s not much you can do in that case and with how the system is nowadays you cannot fail these students, everyone gets a free pass. This has been the case for at least thirty years now, and unfortunately we’re now seeing those very lack-lustre individuals coming back into the college to teach the subject and the situation is worse than it’s ever been with students knowing very little, even good students do not get a decent education.

 

[Jacob]

It’s certainly not impossible, and I wasn’t suggesting that. My point was that the quality of students is much lesser than it once was. .......

They've been saying that since history began! The youth of today! I blame the teachers - and the Ministry of Education (if we still have one!)

 

[Cabinetman]

Over the years it's certainly been within my power "to talk them into safe practices" having taught hundreds of learning woodworkers over the years. Having said that in reality it's been through demonstration and instruction on my part followed by observing the learner's use of the saw and correcting errors in their usage and practices: ideally, corrections are made prior to any actual cutting by the learner. Historically, and currently in the UK SawStop technology is a non-issue so there's never been any kind of dependency to liberate learners from.

On this issue I rather disagree with Against_The_Grain, and it's perfectly possible to try it and be successful. Slainte.

Were we more malleable in those days? Maybe we weren’t so cock sure of ourselves, is it computers and media? so that when the time came to be taught how to use a T saw we listened and as far as I was concerned that was it. That was the way it will be and has been ever since - two push sticks. Almost half a century ago and I can still picture the setting and the instruction.
Not disagreeing with Against the grain, and it’s a sad outcome where the inadequacies of a previous generation are being foisted onto today’s students, who are by the sound of it not prepared to listen and be taught anyway.
Maybe as was said it’s the quality of student that has changed.
Ian

 

[Adam W.]

No, the quality of the tutor has changed.

 

[Jacob]

No, the quality of the tutor has changed.

I think they haven't caught up with the massive expansion of use of machines over recent years.
I did a C&G course in 1982 and it was all hand tools. Back in the 60s an amateur DIY woodworker might have had a B&D drill attachment circular saw, a precursor to the combination woodwork machine.
A TS in general was a specialised trade thing, generally managed by old chaps with fingers missing. My first one (after the B&D attachment) was a Picador spindle with 6" dia blade, mounted on an ammo box with a washing machine motor inside.

 

[HOJ]

A TS in general was a specialised trade thing, generally managed by old chaps with fingers missing. My first one (after the B&D attachment) was a Picador spindle with 6" dia blade, mounted on an ammo box with a washing machine motor inside.

How times have changed, I've lost count of the number of posts, on this Forum we have the question "looking for a table saw" along with for a "limited budget".

I just did a quick online search and this is a worrying example:





Supposedly 5 people have bought one of these today.

 

[Spectric]

There was a time when students were like sponges, mouth shut with eyes and ears alert and soaking up knowledge but now they are teflon and nothing sticks and people in general struggle to understand quality, they are just no longer hands on as everything is purchased and not repaired and that inner drive to understand is just missing. Expectations are very high though and at least five people think that you can get a usable table saw for £110, I suppose put a very fine blade on it and it might be great for making balsa wood models.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

Oh , for crying out loud folks. There have always been dumb idiots, and then there are idiots dumber than that sub group. Young people aren't, as a whole, stupid, they've never been stupid. Individuals are either stupid, smart, or somewhere in between.

If young people want to learn they go out and find ways to learn, whether that be through text books, the internet, or from learning from old farts like me that were, ourselves, trained fifty years ago by ancient troglodytes who got what they knew from traumatised wrecks that went through the Great War. The true, 100 percent idiots never want to learn, and never have wanted to learn since time immemorial, and have always, surely, been a waste of space.

Okay, so I can sharpen a chisel with a bit of smooth concrete floor (yawn, big deal), but, to be honest I struggle a bit, being an old fart, with parametric drafting and running a CNC machine. To get expertise with that sort of thing I'm quite happy to turn to my seventeen year old twin granddaughters for a few pointers - they're pretty handy at all that social media and online stuff which tends to bore me to tears. Slainte.

 

[Ed Weber]

Some of you may find this interesting
https://toolguyd.com/companies-allege-sawstop-refused-to-license-safety-tech/

 

[Against_The_Grain]

Oh , for crying out loud folks. There have always been dumb idiots, and then there are idiots dumber than that sub group. Young people aren't, as a whole, stupid, they've never been stupid. Individuals are either stupid, smart, or somewhere in between.

I completely agree, but the problem is that in the last twenty years or so there's been a big drive in schools to force school leavers into university even if their GCSE results were quite lacklustre so we're getting far fewer capable individuals coming into colleges to join the trades in general. I would say over forty years ago you would've had at least 70% of a college class leaving at a competent level to be able to go on and perform their chosen trade to a high standard, and these days I would say it's 10% or less in some cases because of that lack of "smart" or even "in between" people entering the trades. It also isn't helped by the fact that the colleges are motivated to pass every student due to the large grants they get for each student passed at the lowest bar rather than on the overall quality of the training, and the government pushing for more "boots on the site" as there's predicted to be a quarter of a million labour shortfall in the next few years which will supposedly stunt Britain's growth, so the bar for entry is constantly being lowered.

You only have to compare older and modern City and Guilds textbooks to see the difference, older ones were vast with in depth knowledge and technical information, nowadays it's only surface level information with the text being worded as if for children rather than young adults. You wouldn't give these individuals a copy of "Cut and Dried" for example as it would be a complete waste as it would go unread for being too technical for them to comprehend despite how clear and informative it is, a higher quality student however in that less than 10% category would find it invaluable.

 

[TRITON]

The original saw stop destroyed both the blade and the sawstop cartridge thingy as well. Not aware if the latest version does the same .

Personally I wouldn't care. fingers are non replaceable, blades and cartridges are.

To all and sundry. Accidents happen, thats why they're called accidents. Nobody is infallible.

 

[Jacob]

I completely agree, but the problem is that in the last twenty years or so there's been a big drive in schools to force school leavers into university even if their GCSE results were quite lacklustre so we're getting far fewer capable individuals coming into colleges to join the trades in general. I would say over forty years ago you would've had at least 70% of a college class leaving at a competent level to be able to go on and perform their chosen trade to a high standard, and these days I would say it's 10% or less in some cases because of that lack of "smart" or even "in between" people entering the trades. It also isn't helped by the fact that the colleges are motivated to pass every student due to the large grants they get for each student passed at the lowest bar rather than on the overall quality of the training, and the government pushing for more "boots on the site" as there's predicted to be a quarter of a million labour shortfall in the next few years which will supposedly stunt Britain's growth, so the bar for entry is constantly being lowered.

You only have to compare older and modern City and Guilds textbooks to see the difference, older ones were vast with in depth knowledge and technical information, nowadays it's only surface level information with the text being worded as if for children rather than young adults. You wouldn't give these individuals a copy of "Cut and Dried" for example as it would be a complete waste as it would go unread for being too technical for them to comprehend despite how clear and informative it is, a higher quality student however in that less than 10% category would find it invaluable.

Blame government education policy and the feeble teachers who don't object, not the students.

 

[Adam W.]

I completely agree, but the problem is that in the last twenty years or so there's been a big drive in schools to force school leavers into university even if their GCSE results were quite lacklustre so we're getting far fewer capable individuals coming into colleges to join the trades in general. I would say over forty years ago you would've had at least 70% of a college class leaving at a competent level to be able to go on and perform their chosen trade to a high standard, and these days I would say it's 10% or less in some cases because of that lack of "smart" or even "in between" people entering the trades. It also isn't helped by the fact that the colleges are motivated to pass every student due to the large grants they get for each student passed at the lowest bar rather than on the overall quality of the training, and the government pushing for more "boots on the site" as there's predicted to be a quarter of a million labour shortfall in the next few years which will supposedly stunt Britain's growth, so the bar for entry is constantly being lowered.

You only have to compare older and modern City and Guilds textbooks to see the difference, older ones were vast with in depth knowledge and technical information, nowadays it's only surface level information with the text being worded as if for children rather than young adults. You wouldn't give these individuals a copy of "Cut and Dried" for example as it would be a complete waste as it would go unread for being too technical for them to comprehend despite how clear and informative it is, a higher quality student however in that less than 10% category would find it invaluable.

The NVQ system is guilty of this, with inexperienced assessors who hold an NVQ3 in the subject along with a general CAVA assessor certificate from an online course, are able to assess and pass NVQ's remotely using video evidence, a telephone conversation and a witness statement.

In some cases the assessors, who are often self employed and working from home, only get paid when they pass the NVQ candidate.

NVQ's have been so hyped up, that some interviewers believe that anyone holding an NVQ3 in site carpentry is a master craftsman and on most major construction sites, an inexperienced "carpenter", and I use the term loosely, armed with an NVQ2 and a two day site supervision safety training scheme certificate (SSSTS) can legally supervise a team of similarly qualified or even less experienced carpenters.

To put this into context, an NVQ3 in Site Carpentry can be achieved in a week to 10 days if you work at it.

 

[Against_The_Grain]

Blame government education policy and the feeble teachers who don't object, not the students.

Will you please be quiet and read properly? That’s exactly who I’ve been blaming the whole time.

 

[XTiffy]

Jacob will never read poperly as it might alter his opinion LoL.
It is insane to imagine that 50% of current students are worthy of a University education. That is only possible if you dumb down for all. The Royal Navy had a very succesful apprenticeship scheme for well over a hundred years, training Artificers the backbone of engineers in the fleet. Recruitment became impossible due to the students requiring four "O" levels (or equivanlent) and these then went off to Uni. instead. Ending up with worthless degrees and a pile of debt that will never be paid in most cases.

 

[Jacob]

Will you please be quiet and read properly? That’s exactly who I’ve been blaming the whole time.

Make your mind up. You said "My point was that the quality of students is much lesser than it once was."

 

[Jacob]

Jacob will never read poperly as it might alter his opinion LoL.
It is insane to imagine that 50% of current students are worthy of a University education. That is only possible if you dumb down for all. The Royal Navy had a very succesful apprenticeship scheme for well over a hundred years, training Artificers the backbone of engineers in the fleet. Recruitment became impossible due to the students requiring four "O" levels (or equivanlent) and these then went off to Uni. instead. Ending up with worthless degrees and a pile of debt that will never be paid in most cases.

I don't think you'd get into University with just 4 'O' levels.
The absolute minimum is 5 O levels or equivalent, including Maths and English, plus 2 A levels, though special circumstances and other considerations can be taken into account.