Table saw safety

[Jacob]

...... Thankfully he is using sawstop, because if he wasnt, that wouldnt be a simple elastoplast wrapped around the end of his thumb and would be a big gigantic hospital wound dressing.

Just a passing thought here; if anybody thinks they are stupid (edited!) doubts their ability enough to need a saw stop then he/she shouldn't be anywhere near the machine and maybe should start looking for a new career?

 

[TRITON]

Just a passing thought here; if anybody thinks they are stupid enough to need a saw stop then he/she shouldn't be anywhere near the machine and maybe should start looking for a new career?

That is exactly the type of antagonistic post we have all come to expect from you Jacob

Safety measures = Bad eh ?

Please explain why

 

[TRITON]

I'm not sure how the qualification is relevant to the discussion but OK. My C&G cabinetmaking qualification isn't one I'm particularly fond of as it was so easy to achieve and most of the people on the course were only there for the government grant money, making anything was almost optional and you got a shiny certificate at the end of the year for it, practically worthless really. It is much more difficult to get a wood machining diploma as there is a lot more theoretical work involved.

Its obviously relevant because they train you to a certain standard. This i think you know fine and well.
Cause and effect plays a great part of our lives to prevent injury or even death. Are you against seatbelts in cars ?. Or using the green cross code when out and about. Clearly not. Because those have been found through study to go a long way in preventing accidents from occurring in the first place.

As with woodworking machinery. We do things a certain way, because it has been found these are the ways to prevent accidents
And that has been discovered by asking the people who have had accidents, what they were doing at the time the accident occurred.

So im sure you accept that we do things a certain way because the powers that be have worked out those are the safest way to do it.
No doubt in your C&G training, or machine shop training you covered the spindle moulder, and as you say C&G thats from a fair bit back so maybe trained in the bigger older types. Did your trainer introduce the moulder to you, a few instructions then walk off and leave you to it to make a cup of char and has a sitdown. I would say not because there would have likely been a serious accident. Do you use guards on the moulder ?. I would say yes. Then why ?, because you understand the dangers, and those danger you havent discovered by trial and error, you were taught them.
Hence being taught professionally goes a way to preventing dangers.
I think we've all see the result of people doing diy with things like chop saws, sleeves down and reaching in to the blade area. People who are using dangerous machinery with no training whatsoever.

it was your completely incorrect supposition about the angle changing as the blade height increases and decreases and causing more of a blunting effect, which is not true whatsoever.

Well i disagree with you there. I ask they you show me other evidence to say that is the case.

 

[Against_The_Grain]

Its obviously relevant because they train you to a certain standard. This i think you know fine and well.
Cause and effect plays a great part of our lives to prevent injury or even death. Are you against seatbelts in cars ?. Or using the green cross code when out and about. Clearly not. Because those have been found through study to go a long way in preventing accidents from occurring in the first place.

As with woodworking machinery. We do things a certain way, because it has been found these are the ways to prevent accidents
And that has been discovered by asking the people who have had accidents, what they were doing at the time the accident occurred.

So im sure you accept that we do things a certain way because the powers that be have worked out those are the safest way to do it.
No doubt in your C&G training, or machine shop training you covered the spindle moulder, and as you say C&G thats from a fair bit back so maybe trained in the bigger older types. Did your trainer introduce the moulder to you, a few instructions then walk off and leave you to it to make a cup of char and has a sitdown. I would say not because there would have likely been a serious accident. Do you use guards on the moulder ?. I would say yes. Then why ?, because you understand the dangers, and those danger you havent discovered by trial and error, you were taught them.
Hence being taught professionally goes a way to preventing dangers.
I think we've all see the result of people doing diy with things like chop saws, sleeves down and reaching in to the blade area. People who are using dangerous machinery with no training whatsoever.

Again, I didn’t bring up safety at all, my argument is about efficiency of cut and how the blade actually cuts and your incorrect supposition, not how safe it is or not.

My spindle moulder training consisted of “Right, here’s the on button, off button, sharp bit is here don’t put your hands near it, now pull all these parts through it” and after watching a couple being fed through they wandered off. You either sank or you swam.

Well i disagree with you there. I ask they you show me other evidence to say that is the case.

There doesn’t need to be evidence, it’s quite simple to understand if you understand how wood works, cutting the short grain is much easier than the long grain with a circular saw.

 

[TRITON]

Clearly you are talking, with respect, pish.

Safety, it is about safety and ive just been checking out the City and guilds course work and none of what you suppose happens to coincide with reality. You were at no point ever taught to have the blade up at maximum, its something you've thought about in your head and have no proof to back it up.
Everything in the C&G is backed up by HSE regulation, and nowhere in regulation does it state blades should be set to maximum for all timber thicknesses.

As to efficiency, because thats what you're playing this as. Blade fully up dramatically increases the risk of kickback., and causes more saw marks to the cut surfaces. Its an aggressive way of doing it and because of that it is not recommended. You do it because you can rip the boards through faster. and in doing that there's more risk of complacency.
Im more about safety and doing things carefully and with thought. Safety factors are there for a very good reason.


Spindle moulders - just left to get on with it ?, what college was that. micky mouse central ?

 

[Hornbeam]

There have been a number of comments on this forum regarding blade height. Personally I set the height so the teeth are clearing the cut by about 6mm. I feel this is a less agressive cut and increases the number of teeth in the workpiece effectively increasing the blade tooth count giving a smoother cut. This is less of a consideration when rough ripping where a higher blade will require slightly less power
There have also been arguments that a higher set blade decreases the risk of kickback as the teeth are cutting more downwards. I would not agree with this as kickback originates from material being lifted by the back of the blade which when set higher is more likely to lift the wood. The 3 main protections are the correctly set height of the crown guard, correct with of riving knife for the kerf of the blade and the rip fence being set correctly so it doesnt extend too far past the front of teh sawblade or toe in and risk pinching the material between the fence and the blade. Note a lot of saws with fences which clamp on rails at the front and back of the table tend to crab really badly when being adjusted. They should also have a shorter subfence attached to the front portion

 

[Inspector]

Another video to watch about the blade braking ability of a SawStop. There is an inaccuracy or two like the dado blade being illegal in Europe and the guy plugging his stuff but the interesting part to see is what happens to a dado blade as it is stopped.
He starts talking about it at 5:20min.

Pete
One who is smart enough to have it but not rely on it over safe practices.

 

[RobinBHM]

There have been a number of comments on this forum regarding blade height. Personally I set the height so the teeth are clearing the cut by about 6mm. I feel this is a less agressive cut and increases the number of teeth in the workpiece effectively increasing the blade tooth count giving a smoother cut. This is less of a consideration when rough ripping where a higher blade will require slightly less power
There have also been arguments that a higher set blade decreases the risk of kickback as the teeth are cutting more downwards. I would not agree with this as kickback originates from material being lifted by the back of the blade which when set higher is more likely to lift the wood. The 3 main protections are the correctly set height of the crown guard, correct with of riving knife for the kerf of the blade and the rip fence being set correctly so it doesnt extend too far past the front of teh sawblade or toe in and risk pinching the material between the fence and the blade. Note a lot of saws with fences which clamp on rails at the front and back of the table tend to crab really badly when being adjusted. They should also have a shorter subfence attached to the front portion

you might find experiment with blade height helps with break out -if cutting plywood or veneered boards, sometimes raising or lowering the height improves the cut by reducing chipping out -on both top and underside.

I personally think 6mm above work is a little on small side, but that may work best for you on your saw. Thin materials I go higher generally.

 

[RobinBHM]

You were at no point ever taught to have the blade up at maximum

blade up at maximum is not the safest method - on my panel saw, if using 400mm blade that’s over 100mm of blade above the table, no way would I do that.

I can’t see blade height having any real impact on rate of saw bluntening - inconsistent feed rates, stopping and allowing burning will blunten the blade, as will abrasive material like melamine faced boards, mdf, OSB etc

 

[TRITON]

Another video to watch about the blade braking ability of a SawStop.

Ye gods that is brave, testing your willy against the saw stop mechanism.

 

[Against_The_Grain]

Clearly you are talking, with respect, pish.

Safety, it is about safety and ive just been checking out the City and guilds course work and none of what you suppose happens to coincide with reality. You were at no point ever taught to have the blade up at maximum, its something you've thought about in your head and have no proof to back it up.
Everything in the C&G is backed up by HSE regulation, and nowhere in regulation does it state blades should be set to maximum for all timber thicknesses.

As to efficiency, because thats what you're playing this as. Blade fully up dramatically increases the risk of kickback., and causes more saw marks to the cut surfaces. Its an aggressive way of doing it and because of that it is not recommended. You do it because you can rip the boards through faster. and in doing that there's more risk of complacency.
Im more about safety and doing things carefully and with thought. Safety factors are there for a very good reason.


Spindle moulders - just left to get on with it ?, what college was that. micky mouse central ?

To be fair, I was a practicing machinist and spindle hand long before I was a properly qualified one, where I began my work they did not have the time nor inclination to train thoroughly so you were simply shown the very basics and you learned as you went along, hence sink or swim, many sank but the ones that could swim became the best.

Again, I didn't bring up health and safety or qualifications, I simply said that cutting short grain with a blade at a higher height is easier than long grain with a blade at a lower height and what you were saying in regards to cutting angles was completely incorrect. I never said that I was taught to have the blade at maximum height, these are words you are putting in my mouth and I do not appreciate it. With a properly set riving knife, crown guard, short fence, and push/spiked sticks there is very little risk of kickback even with a blade at full height, you would set the guard to be 1/4" from the top of the work but the blade could be several inches higher above the work again, especially on rip saws where there was no height adjustment and by default were fully raised.

It doesn't particularly cause more saw marks to the cut surfaces to have the blade at full height as compared to slightly above the workpiece, even so, you practically always work the sawn edges over the jack to get them to a desirable surface that can be used further. I'm not talking about speed when I'm talking about efficiency, it's efficient cutting short grain because the saw blade does not get as hot as cutting long grain which causes friction, which drastically reduces the life of the saw blade as you will know, it's less of an issue with the modern carbide toothed blades as compared to the older type with plain set teeth or tipped with stellite but it can still cause blades to warp and carbide to wear out prematurely, as well as there is less labour on the motor to rip the same section.

 

[TRITON]

Then i accept your answer and look to my own shortcomings in being a know it all barsteward. And perhaps a bit pedantic with it.

Just a bit

 

[whitty]

There are so many Youtube videos of people having accidents it's almost like they do it on purpose for views. Reg Kreugers accident isn't really a great advert for Sawstop and shows you still need to take care when using one.



My blade stays at full height, I see no problem with this if it's properly guarded. It means the blade is pushing the timber down to the table rather than back at you, also less teeth in the cut so not as much heat generated and blades last longer (that's the theory anyway). If I wasn't using a crown guard I would drop the blade down to the height you suggest though.

After working in many joinery shops for 55 years, the bigger bench saws always had the blades at full height. always guarded, the dimension saws were the only ones that had blades adjusted to suit the job in hand.

 

[Doug71]

After working in many joinery shops for 55 years, the bigger bench saws always had the blades at full height. always guarded, the dimension saws were the only ones that had blades adjusted to suit the job in hand.

I guess that's where my leaving the blade at full height comes from. We had a Wadkin BSW for years, blade was always at full height. Crown guard was always set to allow 4" timber under as that was the largest commonly used although there was a nosepiece that was dropped down to within half inch of whatever timber you were cutting. The crown guard did get wound up on occasion when there was deeper timber to cut, it would happily deep cut 6" timber with an inch of teeth sticking out above.

 

[Keith 66]

I recently visited our local mens shed to drop off some tools & woodwork related books i have no use for, I know the guy who runs it quite well. Nice bloke, very well meaning & the shed is going well. Before the lockdown he was trying to get me to help out there.
On my latest visit a guy was using the bench saw & in two cuts you could see the wood trying to climb the blade & how he avoided a kickback i do not know. No guard, no riving knife.
I pointed out straight away what i thought. the reply was "Two of the blokes are ex industry & said its ok to remove them as they get in the way". This in a place & situation where people who are often very inexperienced are using said machines.
I have told the organiser my view that when there is an accident, whoever took the guards etc off is liable, followed by the organisers or shed committee. Can you honestly see an insurance company paying out if guards are deliberately removed?
I hope they take it on board, otherwise somebody is going to get badly hurt.
Having spent 15 years in the education sector where safety around machines was paramount I find some attitudes hard to get my head round.

 

[hlvd]

I recently visited our local mens shed to drop off some tools & woodwork related books i have no use for, I know the guy who runs it quite well. Nice bloke, very well meaning & the shed is going well. Before the lockdown he was trying to get me to help out there.
On my latest visit a guy was using the bench saw & in two cuts you could see the wood trying to climb the blade & how he avoided a kickback i do not know. No guard, no riving knife.
I pointed out straight away what i thought. the reply was "Two of the blokes are ex industry & said its ok to remove them as they get in the way". This in a place & situation where people who are often very inexperienced are using said machines.
I have told the organiser my view that when there is an accident, whoever took the guards etc off is liable, followed by the organisers or shed committee. Can you honestly see an insurance company paying out if guards are deliberately removed?
I hope they take it on board, otherwise somebody is going to get badly hurt.
Having spent 15 years in the education sector where safety around machines was paramount I find some attitudes hard to get my head round.

I suspect the only person going to get charged for that breach of H&S is the organiser/named person, any user will be absolved of punishment as they’re unpaid and under your friend’s supervision.

 

[Keith 66]

Unless they were the person that actually removed said safety equipment, in that case they should most definately be liable.

 

[TominDales]

I recently visited our local mens shed
On my latest visit a guy was using the bench saw & in two cuts you could see the wood trying to climb the blade & how he avoided a kickback i do not know. No guard, no riving knife.
I pointed out straight away what i thought. the reply was "Two of the blokes are ex industry & said its ok to remove them as they get in the way". This in a place & situation where people who are often very inexperienced are using said machines.

It's probably why they are 'ex industry'. I can foresee where this will end-up...
Someone (with tenacious relatives) will eventually get killed, there will be an enquiry and mens sheds will be required to be regulated, inspected, audited etc and most will close... A bit of common sense and best practice is all that is needed, but I suspect the few cowboys will spoil this hobby.
Its probably worth tactfully giving the organiser the HSE guidance on table saws.

On a completely off topic point. We have a number of pet shops in and around town, they all used to sell fish until the regulations tightened. Now the large shedshop still does. However the one run by 3 elderly ladies stopped, because they couldn't be bothered to go on the course to get the qualification - they are all well into their 60s. The irony for me, is their knowledge and experience is second to none, their advice over the years on our various pet (including fish) issues was often better than the vets - especially dealing with a cat with diabetes that the vet was slow to diagnose. Whilst I'm for the regulations as the big sheds need it (our 'shed' employs minimum wage with minimum qualification), I find it sad that we end-up driving out of business those with a lifetime of common sense and good safe practice. I want to buy some Nitromoors with DCM in it to remove a stubborn wall of old paint (without damaging the old surface). But I need to go on course that cost £300 in order to do so, despite having a ph.D in chemistry.

 

[hlvd]

Unless they were the person that actually removed said safety equipment, in that case they should most definately be liable.

I work in a sort of similar situation and the only persons responsible for those machines are myself and my colleagues.
Any accidents that happens when non employees use machines are our fault, we are solely responsible.
Your friend needs to be made aware of this as well as the people under his supervision.

 

[TominDales]

I work in a sort of similar situation and the only persons responsible for those machines are myself and my colleagues.
Any accidents that happens when non employees use machines are our fault, we are solely responsible.
Your friend needs to be made aware of this as well as the people under his supervision.

I agree, the more I think about it, the guy is really exposed, especially given what table saws can do.... If something bad happened the HSE call in the police and he will face a criminal charge. Tact is probably required here if he is in the dark on these matters but HSE is pretty clear, whilst not wanting to spook the guy, it would be terrible if something bad happened and a well meaning person realised he had been negligent. Also if someone removes safety equipment without the responsible persons permission they are committing an offence.

I've had a bit of a google and the risk management advice for UK mens sheds is a bit thin. There is a risk assessment of the association web site that mentions the hazards and importance of guards etc but its a bit thin. Safety & Risk Management -

Individual shed groups do have some better stuff such as this one from Whitby has a link to the HSE
https://whitbysheds.co.uk/woodworking-videos-from-hse-health-safety-executive/
The best ones are from Australia - that must be a safety first!
page 39, 40, 41, interesting that it mentions kick-back risk for the mitre saw but not the table saw.
https://mensshed.org/wpcontent/uplo...te Men's Shed Health & Safety Manual 2015.pdf.