Resawing 12" wide hardwood

[BodgerM_497]

I'm pretty new to woodwork; hoping for advice to my re-saw queries, in bold below.

I recently resawed an 8" wide beech plank using this Japenese rip saw. It was tough going and there was a notiecable dish (the saw clearly wandered within the plank) about half way down the length. I've since inferred from another thread that this was due to
a) too short blade (had to attempt to line kerfs starting from opposite faces) and
b) too shallow gullets means sawdust couldn't clear from the cut. Are these reasons correct for the dishing?
https://www.axminstertools.com/japanese-hassunme-rip-saw-110041
...Next job is to re-saw a 10" wide Sapele. Clearly I need a more appropriate saw! I was planning to buy a quality sharpenable rip-saw. I'm always keen to acquire new skills, and accurate saw sharpening is no exception. After browsing, it seems a 4.5 TPI Lynx fits the bill?
https://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.u.../?attribute_saw-size-tooth=22"+Rip+Saw+4.5tpi
Finally, why one would ever buy a restored second-hand saws (eg Disston), when such Thomas Flinn Sheffield made saw are available new for ~ same price? Am I missing something?

All advice gratefully received.

 

[Jameshow]

Yes that's the one.

Disston are a renowned maker from Bitd people like the nostalgia of owning old tools.

https://www.toolnut.co.uk/products/...e&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=google+shopping
I have this one and it's ok.

 

[Seascaper]

I'm pretty new to woodwork; hoping for advice to my re-saw queries, in bold below.

I recently resawed an 8" wide beech plank using this Japenese rip saw. It was tough going and there was a notiecable dish (the saw clearly wandered within the plank) about half way down the length. I've since inferred from another thread that this was due to
a) too short blade (had to attempt to line kerfs starting from opposite faces) and
b) too shallow gullets means sawdust couldn't clear from the cut. Are these reasons correct for the dishing?
https://www.axminstertools.com/japanese-hassunme-rip-saw-110041
...Next job is to re-saw a 10" wide Sapele. Clearly I need a more appropriate saw! I was planning to buy a quality sharpenable rip-saw. I'm always keen to acquire new skills, and accurate saw sharpening is no exception. After browsing, it seems a 4.5 TPI Lynx fits the bill?
https://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.u.../?attribute_saw-size-tooth=22"+Rip+Saw+4.5tpi
Finally, why one would ever buy a restored second-hand saws (eg Disston), when such Thomas Flinn Sheffield made saw are available new for ~ same price? Am I missing something?

All advice gratefully received.

Hello,
If you go for a rip saw, by it’s nature it is good for ripping and the cut can be rough and wide depending in the teeth and set. The answer to your question about why would anyone......one can pick up old saws and restore them to better than new quite easily with a good file and a tooth setting tool. It is easy to do and one would have to sharpen a new saw to maintain its cutting performance.
Regards

 

[D_W]

I'm pretty new to woodwork; hoping for advice to my re-saw queries, in bold below.

I recently resawed an 8" wide beech plank using this Japenese rip saw. It was tough going and there was a notiecable dish (the saw clearly wandered within the plank) about half way down the length. I've since inferred from another thread that this was due to
a) too short blade (had to attempt to line kerfs starting from opposite faces) and
b) too shallow gullets means sawdust couldn't clear from the cut. Are these reasons correct for the dishing?
https://www.axminstertools.com/japanese-hassunme-rip-saw-110041
...Next job is to re-saw a 10" wide Sapele. Clearly I need a more appropriate saw! I was planning to buy a quality sharpenable rip-saw. I'm always keen to acquire new skills, and accurate saw sharpening is no exception. After browsing, it seems a 4.5 TPI Lynx fits the bill?
https://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.u.../?attribute_saw-size-tooth=22"+Rip+Saw+4.5tpi
Finally, why one would ever buy a restored second-hand saws (eg Disston), when such Thomas Flinn Sheffield made saw are available new for ~ same price? Am I missing something?

All advice gratefully received.

If you're going to resaw something wide, a frame saw is a better option if you're going to do it often, but not just any frame with any flimsy blade - rather something 3+ feet long (4 is better, and with enough thickness on the saw plate to be rigid under tension. Something like .04-.042" is commonly available.

otherwise, a coarse rip tooth saw will get you by.

the japanese saws with thin plates don't have enough plate stiffness to prevent wander, nor enough height - this is a no go for them. There are larger saws with thicker plates, but generally not in disposable types, and they won't do resawing as well as a frame saw.

As far as which is better, old or a new lynx? The old saws are better saws - nobody makes a carpenter's saw or a rip saw that's the equal of a disston #7 or D8 at this point. Steel, taper, tension, plate finish, handle, proportions - everything about the old saw is superior.

You are correct about buying a saw for resawing - it must be rip, and you must have it sharpened properly (which will be you doing it because it will like to be refreshed somewhat regularly). This is no place for combination saws or hard tooth saws- they are a crosscut tooth pattern, even when they claim to be "combination".

But to repeat, if you intend to do much resawing in the neighborhood of 12" wide, you'll find even a good carpenter's saw is a problem. if you do it once or twice a year, it'll be tiring because the saw plate just isn't long enough and you'll be banging the handle into the wood.

If you make a frame saw, the blade needs to be good and the proportions need to be right (don't be tempted to make one short or with a smaller blade or thinner - it'll be too short or it won't be stable or steerable in the cut). The saw itself doesn't, however, need to be high quality. I made a test saw years ago out of offcuts and screwed it together. The plate is tensioned with wedges that I just squeeze together with a clamp to set it, and the steel holding the plate is literally cheap soft mild steel that was cut from an old jointer drive belt guard. the idea was that if it worked well, I'd make a nice one with better parts, but it's never been necessary.

I did a good job on the saw plate, though, filed from 1095 spring steel that came in a roll. that part is important. I wouldn't make it much finer than 3 teeth per inch.



Work with it is pleasant and easy. I don't tension it for narrower stuff like 4" wide boards or for sticking, but for something like guitar tops or bookmatching flat panels for doors, it's just dandy. to do 12" by 2 feet in oak would take about 15 minutes, and it's more accurate than my prior 18" band saw was (less wander in the cut) and can cut wider stock.

 

[BodgerM_497]

If you make a frame saw, the blade needs to be good and the proportions need to be right (don't be tempted to make one short or with a smaller blade or thinner - it'll be too short or it won't be stable or steerable in the cut). The saw itself doesn't, however, need to be high quality. I made a test saw years ago out of offcuts and screwed it together. The plate is tensioned with wedges that I just squeeze together with a clamp to set it, and the steel holding the plate is literally cheap soft mild steel that was cut from an old jointer drive belt guard. the idea was that if it worked well, I'd make a nice one with better parts, but it's never been necessary.

I did a good job on the saw plate, though, filed from 1095 spring steel that came in a roll. that part is important. I wouldn't make it much finer than 3 teeth per inch.



Work with it is pleasant and easy. I don't tension it for narrower stuff like 4" wide boards or for sticking, but for something like guitar tops or bookmatching flat panels for doors, it's just dandy. to do 12" by 2 feet in oak would take about 15 minutes, and it's more accurate than my prior 18" band saw was (less wander in the cut) and can cut wider stock.

That home made frame saw sounds ideal. I must admit while internet researching for my original post, a frame saw did sound ideal.

However I was under the impression that for a worthwhile frame saw, the metal hardware kit especially the blade, should really be made porfessionally eg
https://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/roubo-frame-saw-kit/index.html
but the cost is obvs offputting & time to ship to Great Britain.... so seeing yours has made me think I should attempt a homemade one too!

To help me plan it out, would you be so kind as to outline your contruction? As said, I am pretty new, and this thread may hopefully help others contemplating a frame saw build.

[Have managed to source some 40 thou / 1mm spring steel]
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313458253871?hash=item48fb91602f:g:-7IAAOSwQ4RdutQz

 

[Jacob]

....
Finally, why one would ever buy a restored second-hand saws (eg Disston), when such Thomas Flinn Sheffield made saw are available new for ~ same price? Am I missing something?

..

4.5 tpi is normal for a rip saw, and 28" long.
Nothing special about Disston they are just ordinary saws, and saw "restoration" usually means sharpening them as that's all they usually need.
The main thing you are missing is that excellent old rip saws crop up regularly on ebay often for just a tenner or so. No need for fashionable and useless Japanese stuff.
Basically should be very easy to do, unless you are talking of ripping to split the plank into two thinner ones. This is a different job altogether and means your stock is the wrong size and you have taken to desperate measures!
Still possible, but hard work, and there are short cuts. Both boards are likely to bow across the width - might be better to allow for this and regard one side as scrap

 

[profchris]

I've been thinking about a frame saw - in the UK I can find *annealed* spring steel in a roll, and *tempered* in flat form.

Do I need annealed? And do I need to temper it after filing?

Also, thin but wide plate is hard to find - for a roughly 4 inch deep blade, what thickness is ideal?

 

[D_W]

boy is it a treat to find a blade for that cost. I would use every inch of the length unless the seller has something around 4 feet.

there's almost enough there for two blades.

so, here's the idea on the construction:
* the two mild steel bands are just drilled on the ends so they can be bent into a circle and bolted together over the end of the saw frame. the tension will pull them square. they need to be something either rigid (like rectangular channel if you don't want to do this) or mild steel that will bend neatly under tension.
* the only thing holding the blade is 1/4" high carbon rod (unhardened) fed through the blade. the blade is drilled with two holes to match the size of the frame more or less in terms of height. They do not have to be perfect in terms of length from the frame (identical), the way mine is made with thin soft mild steel stock, the stock will form to wherever they are.
* Figure somewhere around an inch or inch and a half of extra gap on the front of the saw to make room for two wooden wedges. a quick clamp does a good job of pinching them together if you get the lengths right.
* Both front and back have this cheap mild steel band - it's easily capable of taking the tension you'll add. the boards would bow before it would fail
* the front and back are just screwed together - it was a test concept. I'd ideally make the saw slightly narrower, but it works as it is.

the slight bendability of the mild steel strapping also allows you to tension the saw and then put a clamp on the plate of the saw and twist it a little (which twists the hardware, not the blade) to get a good straight plate end to end). Once you do that, it keeps its set just fine.

I have accurately sawed guitar blanks that are 15"-16" wide with it and well enough to keep the offcuts for a later guitar top or back.

so...the plate. How did I do it? I filed it by hand. Which means you need to find some very large files (like 8 regular or "heavy or extra heavy" taper) on ebay being sold surplus, because filing the plate from nothing will consume about three of them, and they will become your later routine sharpening files.

I have teeth spaced 3/8ths of an inch apart, and they are not any too coarse.

I would start each tooth with a smaller file as the corners of the big files will wear out first and they're blunt on really big files (fat) and it's easier to get an accurate spacing starting the tooth with something like a 6 regular taper.

I have now filed four plates like this, but each is about 2 hours of heavy work.

And then after that, keep in mind you will need to be able to set the teeth. And most saw sets will really be at their limit (including the coarse japanese saw sets) with teeth that big. you can hammer set - which is less hard than it sounds - you set each tooth and then pinch the teeth in a vise later with a spacer plate on the side.

---------

This construction, other the saw plate, is just garish looking shade tree stuff, but it works shockingly well.

I like four feet because four feet is a body lean and arm extension more or less - it's well matched to our physical characteristics. 3 feet for anything other than narrow stock feels like forcing yourself to walk by shortening your steps and take them faster.

This saw of mine has cut enough linear feet to be resharpened four times, so this isn't a case where someone made a test saw to see if it would work and then just likes to talk about it online.

 

[D_W]

I've been thinking about a frame saw - in the UK I can find *annealed* spring steel in a roll, and *tempered* in flat form.

Do I need annealed? And do I need to temper it after filing?

Also, thin but wide plate is hard to find - for a roughly 4 inch deep blade, what thickness is ideal?

you want blue temper - mid 40s to 50 hardness. The vickers number given for that listing matches it, but most blue temper will.

You will not have a way to harden steel like that accurately, and it is water hardening steel that you'll have no chance getting flat - buy blued.

To drill the holes, you need good drill bits and the ability to sharpen them or a specialty bit like a tile and glass bit with a carbide tip. I just use good american made bits and resharpen them when done.

I can make a short unlisted video showing the construction of the saw if it helps - let me know.

 

[D_W]

two more pictures of the accuracy of the cut:




These may not have been the same cut - but the cut is always done from one side. Every 25 or so strokes you walk around and check the back side of the cut and make small adjustments along the way. It becomes easy to steer in the first few items that you cut as long as you check progress to avoid big swings in trying to twist a blade back into a cut - that will lead to friction and wander. Within not too long, each 25 or so strokes, you'll appreciate a break - there is no way around it being physical work to resaw, even when you're down to perfect sawing. it feels a little like velcro in the cut with all of the teeth engaged -but it's a satisfying feeling.

I don't agree that this kind of saw can't be made diy, but the effort to make it means you want to not make a bunch of thinner blades and have wasted effort, or light saws. there are some videos on youtube of people using tiny frame saws to cut part of one piece- it won't work out.

Too, I attempted to find a cheap way in effort terms to make one of these with a hitachi resaw bandsaw blade, but the teeth are so sparse - there's no way to do it. They dig in like anchors. It won't cut nearly as fast even with the same effort as one of these 2-3 tooth western saws - the weight of the saw pushing down on the teeth just is too much. I filed them more relaxed, and still no go.

 

[D_W]

That home made frame saw sounds ideal. I must admit while internet researching for my original post, a frame saw did sound ideal.

However I was under the impression that for a worthwhile frame saw, the metal hardware kit especially the blade, should really be made porfessionally eg
https://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/roubo-frame-saw-kit/index.html
but the cost is obvs offputting & time to ship to Great Britain.... so seeing yours has made me think I should attempt a homemade one too!

To help me plan it out, would you be so kind as to outline your contruction? As said, I am pretty new, and this thread may hopefully help others contemplating a frame saw build.

[Have managed to source some 40 thou / 1mm spring steel]
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313458253871?hash=item48fb91602f:g:-7IAAOSwQ4RdutQz

I'm not going to say this is easy like cutting a dovetail, but it's not impossible to do, even if you want to do it neatly and have a screw tensioned saw in square channel steel. it's just hard to source all of that stuff in little bits at a reasonable price. To make spontaneous junk like mine is just fine, and you could use it and wear the blade out.

too, I mentioned I screwed it together....I think I did, but it's too long ago now and it might be doweled. It's not "nicely made" though and nicely made doesn't matter. you need tension on the blade and reasonably well filed sharp teeth.

I bristle a little bit at the constant suggestion that we should all just buy everything - you *will* develop significant skill making a saw like this, and it will be useful. It will carry forward to something else that removes the burden of trying to find the perfect tool only to find it's not out there, it's out of stock or super expensive.

 

[D_W]

4.5 tpi is normal for a rip saw, and 28" long.
Nothing special about Disston they are just ordinary saws, and saw "restoration" usually means sharpening them as that's all they usually need.
The main thing you are missing is that excellent old rip saws crop up regularly on ebay often for just a tenner or so. No need for fashionable and useless Japanese stuff.
Basically should be very easy to do, unless you are talking of ripping to split the plank into two thinner ones. This is a different job altogether and means your stock is the wrong size and you have taken to desperate measures!
Still possible, but hard work, and there are short cuts. Both boards are likely to bow across the width - might be better to allow for this and regard one side as scrap

jeez...the title literally says resaw and the posts talks about resawing an 8" wide board.

if you'd done half the work you claim to have done, you would be able to understand that a solid flat panel or raised panel in a door looks pretty nice if it's bookmatched. Which involves resawing. And sometimes, this panel will be bigger than most intermediate saws will do neatly, or at all.

 

[BodgerM_497]

I can make a short unlisted video showing the construction of the saw if it helps - let me know.

Yes that would be very useful thanks.

• Just clarifying overall dimensions - is that 1m length spring steel adequate?
• Also, could the rough tooth shapes not be Dremel abrasive disc cut (or similar rotary tool), and then accurately finished using a triangular file in the normal fashion?
• RE files; so I only need a 6" taper saw file ? You lost me in your consumption of files description; will I need a longer/larger eg 9" taper saw file for the final few strokes?

 

[G S Haydon]

In my opinion general handsaws like 4.5 tpi are okay up to material 3" thick. Anything thicker and there's not the full range of motion.

If you want hand tools only it's going to be frame saw. If you want Blackburn you'll be on a long waiting list.

A pragmatic approach would be to get a local joiner with a bandsaw to do this. Or buy a good bandsaw.

Lastly make a frame saw a learn a new skill.

 

[D_W]

I don't know how well a dremel disc would work. Teeth in saws have generally been filed or punched. Anything that creates heat will create a soft layer, but it may not matter if it's filed off. I've always just filed them in because other than consuming files (I load up ahead of time so that I have a supply of the same file then to sharpen with), it's pretty easy to do neatly.

I think the meter blade is fine - I prefer a four foot blade, but 1095 spring bought to size has gotten so expensive here that when you can find a suitable piece of steel like that one for cheap, you're ahead of the game. You can always build a longer one later.

I also built a three foot file hoping to have something that would work with a finer tooth blade, but this kind of saw generally needs some tooth set to be able to adjust/turn small amounts in the cut, which is kind of what the whole cut is - tiny adjustments the whole way down so that the blade doesn't end up wandering in the cut, and fairly often, you find a lean or bias where the cut doesn't wander much. But with really fine teeth and little set, you can't actually make corrections and strangely enough, it's worse for accurate cutting.

I also figured it would be nice to stop resawing smaller pieces with hand saws for reasons mentioned above - if you think about it, if you're in the cut with a handsaw and the boards is 10" and you're inevitably cutting on a slight incline, you really don't have a whole lot of plate length to play with and you'll always be wishing for more. if you ever use a hand miter box and think "Oh my - a 28" blade!!", you end up running into the same thing - the guides consume a lot of the blade length and you only get a short stroke.

 

[D_W]

I'll try and make a video tomorrow and I'll PM you the link with the construction details. like i said, you can always make something nicer, but this will give you a swing at it along with that very nicely priced piece of spring steel without committing too much of your money.

 

[Fitzroy]

That home made frame saw sounds ideal. I must admit while internet researching for my original post, a frame saw did sound ideal.

However I was under the impression that for a worthwhile frame saw, the metal hardware kit especially the blade, should really be made porfessionally eg
https://www.blackburntools.com/new-tools/new-saws-and-related/roubo-frame-saw-kit/index.html
but the cost is obvs offputting & time to ship to Great Britain.... so seeing yours has made me think I should attempt a homemade one too!

To help me plan it out, would you be so kind as to outline your contruction? As said, I am pretty new, and this thread may hopefully help others contemplating a frame saw build.

[Have managed to source some 40 thou / 1mm spring steel]
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313458253871?hash=item48fb91602f:g:-7IAAOSwQ4RdutQz

I recently made a saw blade from material from that seller. My piece was larger than I needed and trimmed the length then split down the middle (to make two blades) with an angle grinder. I filed the teeth with a saw file after marking the spacing with a sharpie. The material is not over hard and easy enough to cut with a saw file so long as the edge is well supported. It took me about an hour to do a blade at 6TPI. My material was 0.7mm though, the extra in a 1mm thickness I’m sure would add to the work.

I also made holders for the blade. Take a piece of M12 threaded bar, cut a slot in one end with a counter drilled hole. Then a 12m hole and a couple of nuts and you can adjust the length. I’ll try and draw what I mean. The downside of this is the blade is no locked perpendicular to the frame, DW’s bracket has this advantage.

 

[BodgerM_497]

I recently made a saw blade from material from that seller. My piece was larger than I needed and trimmed the length then split down the middle (to make two blades) with an angle grinder. I filed the teeth with a saw file after marking the spacing with a sharpie. The material is not over hard and easy enough to cut with a saw file so long as the edge is well supported. It took me about an hour to do a blade at 6TPI. My material was 0.7mm though, the extra in a 1mm thickness I’m sure would add to the work.

I also made holders for the blade. Take a piece of M12 threaded bar, cut a slot in one end with a counter drilled hole. Then a 12m hole and a couple of nuts and you can adjust the length. I’ll try and draw what I mean. The downside of this is the blade is no locked perpendicular to the frame, DW’s bracket has this advantage.

Any drawing would be most welcome. As I said before, hopefully this thread will also benefit future readers too.

 

[pgrbff]

I ripped/resawed a 160mm wide 80cm long board 30mm thick to produce two quartersawn 13mm boards recently to make a shooting board. I used a decent quality, but far too short Ryoba, it was 195 mm long and really designed for much finer work, with far to many fine teeth, and it did a remarkably good and relatively quick job. There was no bow in the cut and I am amazed how accurately I managed this given my lack of hand tool skills. I had ordered a 300mm Gyokucho resaw Ryoba to do this but it took over 2 weeks to get from Holland to Italy so I gave up waiting and used what I had, a small Mitsukawa made for softwood.
It gave me a far finer cut than a Western saw might have. I was totally surprised. Mitsukawa are good saws but this is something I have never tried before.
I'm not sure why some claim Japanese saws to be 'useless' and only 'fashionable'. They are just different.

 

[pgrbff]

you want blue temper - mid 40s to 50 hardness. The vickers number given for that listing matches it, but most blue temper will.

You will not have a way to harden steel like that accurately, and it is water hardening steel that you'll have no chance getting flat - buy blued.

To drill the holes, you need good drill bits and the ability to sharpen them or a specialty bit like a tile and glass bit with a carbide tip. I just use good american made bits and resharpen them when done.

I can make a short unlisted video showing the construction of the saw if it helps - let me know.

Tungsten spade bits seem quite common in the US but very difficult to find in the UK. I was looking for one when my dovetail saw, that I sent for sharpening, was returned to me as handle and new saw plate, but no holes to attach it to the handle.