Resawing 12" wide hardwood

[D_W]

Seen it.
He's using a saw with teeth spec very different from the hand saw so there is no point in the comparison at all.
He's also struggling quite hard as it's too big for one chap and I doubt he could do a straight cut down the far side.
Totally unconvincing. Talked me right out of it!

I've got two saws with identical teeth. In narrow stock, the long frame saw is ungainly, and it was when I was just learning it. In wood more than about 4 inches wide, the frame saw is much faster with the same teeth.

The comparisons online in pine aren't that useful as there's little made with it here in the states. The same is probably unfortunately true with wide mahogany - it's really not realistic for amateurs to get 16" wide 8/4 genuine mahogany in good quality or a small project can soon be $1000 - $2000 in lumber and have a finished value of not much if it's not used wisely.

Cherry, oak, soft maple, poplar (if painting) would be more realistic. Maybe some white oak.

I'm not sure why anyone tries to convince you or falls into the trap of believing that you're actually processing the discussion and considering anything. The unfortunate casualty in the back and forth is beginners who may believe you have a lot of experience just because you have a negative opinion about what everyone else is doing.

I'm mondo negative, but for a different reason. if I had the ability to be positive in the face of people misleading others and the kind of low bar for advice, I guess I would be. I don't.

 

[G S Haydon]

Or with TS machine the cut from both sides so that the kerfs will guide the saw as you cut out the middle by hand.

TS = Tablesaw?

 

[Jameshow]

TS = Tablesaw?

Yeap

 

[G S Haydon]

Though so. Tecqniues as described aren't a safe way to work. Avoid them.

 

[John Brown]

I've got two saws with identical teeth. In narrow stock, the long frame saw is ungainly, and it was when I was just learning it. In wood more than about 4 inches wide, the frame saw is much faster with the same teeth.

The comparisons online in pine aren't that useful as there's little made with it here in the states. The same is probably unfortunately true with wide mahogany - it's really not realistic for amateurs to get 16" wide 8/4 genuine mahogany in good quality or a small project can soon be $1000 - $2000 in lumber and have a finished value of not much if it's not used wisely.

Cherry, oak, soft maple, poplar (if painting) would be more realistic. Maybe some white oak.

I'm not sure why anyone tries to convince you or falls into the trap of believing that you're actually processing the discussion and considering anything. The unfortunate casualty in the back and forth is beginners who may believe you have a lot of experience just because you have a negative opinion about what everyone else is doing.

I'm mondo negative, but for a different reason. if I had the ability to be positive in the face of people misleading others and the kind of low bar for advice, I guess I would be. I don't.

I'm sure you have a lot of valuable knowledge and advice, D_W, but your constant put downs of Jacob(and others) make you come across as a giant a-hole. It's pathetic, and unnecessary.

Happy new year.

 

[Jameshow]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12548587...ar=426520251828&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
Might be of use? a bit shallow at 2.5"

 

[D_W]

I'm sure you have a lot of valuable knowledge and advice, D_W, but your constant put downs of Jacob(and others) make you come across as a giant a-hole. It's pathetic, and unnecessary.

Happy new year.

John, perhaps if you actually worked wood, you would find it as irritating as I do to see one person after another come here asking for legitimate advice and being fed bull backed by claims of lots of prior experience and none of it materializes - and likely for good reason.

think about where this forum was in terms of hand tool work 6 or 8 years ago and where it is now. there's almost none of it being done or discussed. Think about why that is.

Maybe I just wish there was an area of the forum here for people to seek advice with a requirement that those giving the advice actually did some of what they're discussing. Instead of pondering and disagreeing with the people who actually do it.

I think the war is probably lost, though. Critical mass is gone and nobody who is doing and posting anything will stick around.

I recall Raney Nelson kind of having the same irritation on another forum years ago. I wished he'd stay and told him so as he was one of the few people doing work and posting it. It bothered me to watch one person after another with much to offer just move on because they realized that it wasn't possible to make a dent in the resident experts who - I guess - had something about the forums mean so much to them day to day that they couldn't be forthright. they're all still there. Raney never came back. Of course he's done a large amount of work that would've been wonderful to see. and even if most of the group did nothing with it, the 5 or 10% who did would probably have returned the favor by promoting thoughtful and accurate discussion.

 

[Jacob]

I'm sure you have a lot of valuable knowledge and advice, D_W,

Not convinced - seems to be 99% "bloviation" and he doesn't actually do much woodwork.

but your constant put downs of Jacob(and others) make you come across as a giant a-hole. It's pathetic, and unnecessary.

I have him on ignore permanently. I get clues that he is stalking me as usual, but resist the temptation to have a look! He's got a bit of a problem.

Happy new year.

You too, and poor old D_W - the miserable little tw-erp!
n.b. he seems to have had the same problems on various other forums - he is known for it.

 

[Jacob]

Though so. Tecqniues as described aren't a safe way to work. Avoid them.

I think virtually everybody with a TS does deep cutting, but if in doubt don't do it.

 

[John Brown]

John, perhaps if you actually worked wood, you would find it as irritating as I do to see one person after another come here asking for legitimate advice and being fed bull backed by claims of lots of prior experience and none of it materializes - and likely for good reason.

think about where this forum was in terms of hand tool work 6 or 8 years ago and where it is now. there's almost none of it being done or discussed. Think about why that is.

Maybe I just wish there was an area of the forum here for people to seek advice with a requirement that those giving the advice actually did some of what they're discussing. Instead of pondering and disagreeing with the people who actually do it.

I think the war is probably lost, though. Critical mass is gone and nobody who is doing and posting anything will stick around.

I recall Raney Nelson kind of having the same irritation on another forum years ago. I wished he'd stay and told him so as he was one of the few people doing work and posting it. It bothered me to watch one person after another with much to offer just move on because they realized that it wasn't possible to make a dent in the resident experts who - I guess - had something about the forums mean so much to them day to day that they couldn't be forthright. they're all still there. Raney never came back. Of course he's done a large amount of work that would've been wonderful to see. and even if most of the group did nothing with it, the 5 or 10% who did would probably have returned the favor by promoting thoughtful and accurate discussion.

That's great, David, but you shouldn't need to find it necessary to put people down like you do. It doesn't make you look bigger if you try to make others look smaller. That's something you should have learnt as a teenager.

 

[Jameshow]

Not convinced - seems to be 99% "bloviation" and he doesn't actually do much woodwork.

I have him on ignore permanently. I get clues that he is stalking me as usual, but resist the temptation to have a look! He's got a bit of a problem.

You too, and poor old D_W - the miserable little tw-erp!
n.b. he seems to have had the same problems on various other forums - he is known for it.

Well it takes one to know one!!

 

[G S Haydon]

I agree people might do it Jacob. But what you're proposing would require the removal of the crown guard, on some machines the riving knife too.
Approaches like this are one of the reasons people get hurt. Practices like you propose have led to serious injury and prosecutions. Thankfully practices like this aren't part of how people work these days. Hardly worth it for a piece of wood, is it?

 

[D_W]

That's great, David, but you shouldn't need to find it necessary to put people down like you do. It doesn't make you look bigger if you try to make others look smaller. That's something you should have learnt as a teenager.

I'm not concerned about how big I am or am not. I don't know why people think that's the objective unless that's what the goal of everyone else is walking around. Here's the reality of the situation - you have someone coming in here who wants to make an honest effort at something. it's very easy for one or two people to have a clue what they're talking about and 10 others to chime in with information that is marginal to incorrect. If the original intention is dissuaded, I think that's a shame.

If I were trying to look good, I wouldn't be so blunt and I'd sure make a nicer looking frame saw to boast about.

I think I'm getting the real sense that critical mass is gone. I wasn't taking a shot at you specifically with the comment about not making things - most people are reading and talking about woodworking in a regular basis and rarely making much, for reasons that I can't gather. the balance has gone to that, and maybe it's because the folks making things have something more gainful to do (sell, whatever, etc).

But here we are, 15 years later after I started, and I sure, too, wish I'd spent more time making and less time reading about it. It just seems like we're missing something - the story of being annoyed that someone wanting good information will have to pick the corn out of the flop on their own. it's what caused George Wilson not to bother giving more advice. it's probably what caused Raney Nelson to pop his top.

maybe the part where I'm really stupid is believing that I can demonstrate enough of something to get someone lit and away from the alternate reality of pondering and being critical with zero foundation to stand on.

it seems like in the power tool forums, and who knows - maybe the turning, the mold hasn't started to grow on everyone left the same way. it's annoying - we have the means and nothing progresses - it seems like it can't even stay the same.

But, please, don't assume that I'm hoping to build an empire of ego - I just don't have any real regard for how anyone views me and the only thing I find annoying is that probably there's a 50/50 chance that if I give advice about the cap iron and jacob makes some ignorant statement about it out of lack of exposure to it that my advice will even be tried. I have no interest in someone even remembering it came from me - I want them to go try it for what it could do for them.

 

[D_W]

maybe it is a little selfish - I'm hoping to generate discussion that may draw in other people doing good work so that I can steal some pointers from it. there used to be some of that.

 

[Jacob]

I agree people might do it Jacob. But what you're proposing would require the removal of the crown guard, on some machines the riving knife too.
Approaches like this are one of the reasons people get hurt. Practices like you propose have led to serious injury and prosecutions. Thankfully practices like this aren't part of how people work these days. Hardly worth it for a piece of wood, is it?

I don't "propose" it. I'm a devotee of the crown guard and recommend it repeatedly as the simplest and most effective TS safety measure. Amazingly a lot of people disagree on this and talk of making their own "SUVA" guards but without even knowing what a "SUVA" guard actually is.
But there are one or two simple tasks which have to be done without it in place, but only if you know what you are doing. Americans do it all the time, in youtube after youtube!
You could be prosecuted if you mis-advise somebody in your employ to take risks, and who as a result has an accident. But that's another scenario.

 

[jcassidy]

I'm pretty new to woodwork; hoping for advice to my re-saw queries, in bold below.

I recently resawed an 8" wide beech plank using this Japenese rip saw. It was tough going and there was a notiecable dish (the saw clearly wandered within the plank) about half way down the length. I've since inferred from another thread that this was due to
a) too short blade (had to attempt to line kerfs starting from opposite faces) and
b) too shallow gullets means sawdust couldn't clear from the cut. Are these reasons correct for the dishing?
https://www.axminstertools.com/japanese-hassunme-rip-saw-110041
...Next job is to re-saw a 10" wide Sapele. Clearly I need a more appropriate saw! I was planning to buy a quality sharpenable rip-saw. I'm always keen to acquire new skills, and accurate saw sharpening is no exception. After browsing, it seems a 4.5 TPI Lynx fits the bill?
https://www.flinn-garlick-saws.co.u.../?attribute_saw-size-tooth=22"+Rip+Saw+4.5tpi
Finally, why one would ever buy a restored second-hand saws (eg Disston), when such Thomas Flinn Sheffield made saw are available new for ~ same price? Am I missing something?

All advice gratefully received.

@Dr. Al posted something and I noticed he had this self-made kerfing saw on his website.

Dr.Al kerfing saw

Whether you want to make a framing saw, or fix up an old 36" saw from Sheffield, having the kerf cut all around will help.

 

[Jacob]

Another frame saw vid here.



It's better than the earlier one in that it's narrow and easier to handle, but I still can't see the point compared to a rip hand-saw. Unless you simply haven't got one of course, and bodging up a frame saw is an option. *
But more interestingly he shows a "kerfing" saw, which is a very good idea - a kerf makes ripping a lot easier and self guiding.
Another alternative is to start a kerf with any ordinary back saw, preferably filed as a ripper. A role for those extra long back saws, 16" and above, which turn up on ebay? I've done this myself on one particular job where a 16" back saw was ideal for starting a good straight cut into which I could then drop a rip hand saw.
*PS he also shows the problem of ripping thin stuff in that both pieces might bow so far that they are both useless, and he would have done better to just plane to thickness and have one usable board.

 

[D_W]

@Dr. Al posted something and I noticed he had this self-made kerfing saw on his website.

Dr.Al kerfing saw

Whether you want to make a framing saw, or fix up an old 36" saw from Sheffield, having the kerf cut all around will help.

Ok, I guess I can't get off of the party pooper theme here but this is a project that would work for a trial and not very well in practice. Why? In order to use a kerfing saw of any type, you need functional gullet depth deeper than the cut you'll be making. If you're going to use a kerfing saw as a guide and it's going to have influence on the saw plate that's doing the resawing (prevent wander) the cut will probably need to be at least a half inch deep.

which means you'll need to have gullets at least half an inch deep.

I cut a surplus ripsaw almost in half so that I would have only the back stuff part and then filed out every other tooth so that it was something like 2 teeth per inch. it still gets the gullets packed.

The overall problem with a kerfing saw is it slows things down a lot and on a wide cut, the blade will still wander out of the kerf if it's half an inch deep. if the kerf is cut wider with a table saw, then the blade will also wander around on a wide cut, and then eventually leave the kerf if you're using a frame saw because the TS groove is too wide - won't be an issue on "power tooler's resawing", which is something like taking a 6" board and cutting really deep on both sides and sawing two inches out of the middle.

so, what happens if the gullets pack on the saw? you don't get all of the sawdust out of a kerf and it packs in front of the blade, which sounds like nothing. But one snug whack to try to push it out packs it in so tight that it's hard to get out and even if you "saw" it out, it binds.

Maybe one of the other flaws here is that folks aren't honest enough about their fails. I still have the cut down saw on my wall.

It takes longer to use the kerfing saw than it does to not use it - much longer if you add up all the time that includes faffing around handling the wood several extra times.

Too, the ryoba is a bad choice for resawing - ask me how I know this. I tried all of it. The trouble is all of it will work OK once. but it won't be a functional option if you are doing project work. The frame saw by itself will, and as we've discussed here, perhaps with one of these surplus coils and a whole set of files to cut teeth and then half the right file on hand afterwards, we're in the realm of about $60.

Getting away from the kerfing saw idea and just cutting to the line is kind of freeing - if you have faith in yourself that you can do it and will check the cut from time to time, you'll have no issues with it.

maybe a lesson from this is - could we get everyone to report their failures. And failure goes all the way up to something like the ryoba - "I completed a cut, but wouldn't or don't use this on a regular basis".

 

[D_W]

Tungsten spade bits seem quite common in the US but very difficult to find in the UK. I was looking for one when my dovetail saw, that I sent for sharpening, was returned to me as handle and new saw plate, but no holes to attach it to the handle.

Not sure if I responded to this, but if I didn't - I've not really used any of those. Most are not that accurate cutting in a fresh hole in steel. A very good quality HSS bit at lower speed will get the job done with the only risk that it will leave a little teat on the out side of the cut.

And it will need to be sharpened every couple of holes. the viking/norseman brand in the US aren't terribly expensive, but they work well for this.

There may be some kind of bottom cutting expensive endmill (a little one) that would struggle through a cut like this slowly but neatly, but I haven't had any such luck.

Little carbide burrs in a strong die grinder can do it, too, heating the steel and drawing out temper at the spot and then cutting through,

 

[D_W]

here's a list of my fails resawing:

* ryoba - rough on the hands, hard to turn if they get off track, slow in the cut and limited length

* disposable japanese kataba, like the one shown in the first picture here. Sore hands, big vibration, some wander - looks like a great idea but doesn't have the weight or stiffness needed for resawing (frame saw gets around this with tension rather than plate bulk
* larger tooth japanese kataba (hand made, but I got it used off of buyee). Decent enough saw - too short, but much better than a ryoba. rough on the hands, though

* Japanese maebiki (actually, have two). this works, but it is very hard to get it to work spine straight up and get it to work efficiently. it's an aggressive saw with a lot of weight on the back and it cuts a very wide kerf - probably in excess of .1. The maebiki that you often see people cutting logs with is more like a western sawplate, but double thick of anything you'll see from disston and probably intended to be used with the toothline diagonal to vertical from the ground, or laying on its side cutting a log while sitting it. You can find a lot of people resawing with them. I can resaw with mine - it's just a lot slower than a frame saw and a lot more work and more fighting and sore hands. Subtle sometimes, the same way a chainsaw will vibrate and make your hands sore

* frame saw with a 2 or 2 1/2" tall .03" steel blade - not stiff enough to avoid wandering, and the plate height isn't tall enough to avoid it either. It's possible it would work in limited woods that are easy cutting, but it didn't work in cherry.

* kerfing saw - the cut down hand saw mentioned above with every other tooth filed out and then the gap between teeth filed as deep as possible with an 8 extra heavy taper file (double the depth of a 5 1/2 point rip saw) - seems like a good idea, but rough to start and the gullets are packed with dust on a longer panel before you go as deep as you want. If you clean out the kerf and push the saw when it's already to depth, the kerf will pack within a few strokes

* hand saw on wide wood - not productive enough and you'll tire of it no matter how coarse the teeth are unless you are just trying to prove you can do this once


Where all of the above fail isn't because it's impossible to use them - they fail because they either don't have widespread application (may work for light pine but not beech) or because they aren't suitable to do this ten times in actual practice.

A frame saw by itself cutting to a well marked line (one side or the other - you will become that precise pretty quickly - to cut right aside of the line or just off - whatever it takes to leave yourself enough to joint or plane off the saw marks, and then it's just pretty much exercise.