Putin is a loser

[Chris152]

SOCIALISM = COMMUNISM LITE.

A bit like beer with the alcohol taken out

Right-wing populism = Fascism lite

(Though I'm not sure how lite - it's still fermenting.)

 

[AJB Temple]

I keep having to remind myself this is a wood forum.

 

[RobinBHM]

Perhaps you'd care to share your knowledge of the true nature of the two and the essential differences between them?

Clearly there are those among us, including yours truly, who are in need of some crumbs of enlightenment.

Post #56 gives a very clear distinction.

But the real issue is that people confuse socialism and communism with totalitarianism / authoritarianism / dictatorship. Russia, China, Cuba etc are not communist or socialist.


When the Republicans refer to Kamala as a “crazy Marxist” they are talking about the Democrat party which would be right of centre in the U.K.

For example Kamala has called for paid leave for employees……in Europe that a basic right, it’s not crazy Marxist at all.


Capitalism as a concept is the natural way to organise a society….but unhindered it naturally leads to a society where very very few people have all the wealth, so we need checks and balances to stop that.

Marxism, socialism, communism are philosophically the best way to organise society as everybody shares land, production, goods, houses etc. There would be capitalist gatekeepers owning the factories.

However in my opinion they can never work because the people in this world who are desperately ambitious would end up at the top in such a system and would change the rules to make themselves richer and more powerful. Imagine a Trump in such a system..,.what you get is Kim Jong Un


All this talk of socialism is probably boiling Tony’s head, the poor chap

 

[AJB Temple]

Post #56 gives a very clear distinction.

For example Kamala has called for paid leave for employees……in Europe that a basic right, it’s not crazy Marxist at all.

Just thought I would add, from an employer perspective and having worked in the US and UK, the US has a different cultural attitude to the UK and it can be quite difficult to adapt to if you start off in the UK (and even more so if you come from Norway or even France). The Marxist label is (I agree with Robin) just nonsense and I doubt that many Americans have a clue about Marxism.

Paid leave is really just a different distribution system. It's all part of the total payroll cost and the employer factors that into the whole business budget.

 

[ey_tony]

This is a half-decent summary for you:

'Key differences between communism and socialism

Under communism, there is no such thing as private property. All property is communally owned, and each person receives a portion based on what they need. A strong central government—the state—controls all aspects of economic production, and provides citizens with their basic necessities, including food, housing, medical care and education.

By contrast, under socialism, individuals can still own property. But industrial production, or the chief means of generating wealth, is communally owned and managed by a democratically elected government.

Another key difference in socialism versus communism is the means of achieving them. In communism, a violent revolution in which the workers rise up against the middle and upper classes is seen as an inevitable part of achieving a pure communist state. Socialism is a less rigid, more flexible ideology. Its adherents seek change and reform, but often insist on making these changes through democratic processes within the existing social and political structure, not overthrowing that structure.'

https://www.history.com/news/socialism-communism-differences

Communism seems to be absolutist (in practice, it isn't as it exists at the moment), while socialism exists within our economy as a force for change.

The problem is that neither of the ideologies (communism or socialism) work other than on paper. For them to work they need both coercion and the compliance of people who are unable to think beyond indoctrination and neither of the ideologies are desirable in a free thinking modern world.

We've just witnessed the application of crass and destructive socialist taxes, (inheritance tax & Ni contributions ) being introduced which will affect the future of the UK far more than just the revenue raised.
It will affect jobs, investments and the long term food production of the UK so I hate to say this but socialism is not the way forward if the UK is to prosper.

Unless inheritance tax is repealed in its proposed form then such as farms will have to be sold off piecemeal to pay inheritance taxes and that will reduce the economic viability of many smaller farms leading to complete sell off and then being bought up by such as the huge supermarkets chains or the likes which will then make the British people even more dependent upon them for the UK's food supply.

As was said by Friedrich Hayek, " if socialists understood economics they wouldn't be socialists".
Increasing the NI contributions by employers is going to make hiring staff more expensive so those costs are going to be inevitably passed on to customers/clients in the form of price increases resulting in increased inflation for everyone.
Inheritance tax will also stifle future investment as entrepreneurs will simply not invest in projects if they know that if they do invest then it's going to affect those to whom they have willed their estate upon their death.
It's already happening as we speak...
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/oth...nvestment-after-reeves-s-tax-raid/ar-AA1tPrW2

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Right-wing populism = Fascism lite

(Though I'm not sure how lite - it's still fermenting.)

Both true!

 

[Spectric]

I keep having to remind myself this is a wood forum.

It would be nice if we got more woodworking achievements and projects as it helps give incentive and ideas to others, we all need a little push this time of year.

 

[mark w]

Reading through these posts it's quite clear that all of you right wingers are very very very stupid and in complete denial about the last 14 years of Tory incompetence.

 

[TRITON]

There are socialist principles at work in the US. Collectives for example, as seen in farming markets.

 

[AJB Temple]

It would be nice if we got more woodworking achievements and projects as it helps give incentive and ideas to others, we all need a little push this time of year.

Indeed. And I used to be very active in originating woodwork threads, tool reviews, projects etc and commenting on same here. But the shift in ownership to Republic of Panama domicile, coupled with an issue over termination and refund of supporter fees and what I regard as dodgy T&Cs at the same time, meant that I decided I would no longer originate any thread or post any images. This is because I regard Panama as a money laundering venue and legal concealment country.

But there are still interesting threads on here sometimes and I still post but prefer not to allow Panamanian operations to monetise content from me beyond click count. It is interesting that the site ignores the push notification "never ask me again" option, so that tells me about how data protection is maintained.

 

[Jacob]

Perhaps you'd care to share your knowledge of the true nature of the two and the essential differences between them?

You could do your own research instead of lazily asking us help - you will only jeer at the answers!

Clearly there are those among us, including yours truly, who are in need of some crumbs of enlightenment.

Yes I'm sure there are!
There's plenty on-line if you really wanted to know.
Try "why socialism" as a search term? Einstein wrote a few pages.
Or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_socialism
Or books! Remember them?
"The Rise of the Labour Movement" by Geoffrey Morris, is a good one. Written for a GCE level of history so may not be too difficult for you. Plenty of pictures too. I doubt there is a Ladybird edition.
Or "The Making of the English Working Class" EP Thompson. A classic but a long read. Have a look at reviews first. Or Wikipedia.
PS Add to your reading list
"A People's History of the United States" Howard Zinn.
"A People's History of England" A L Morton
They both have a socialistic view of things and are essential reading, like it or not.

 

[Jacob]

There are socialist principles at work in the US. Collectives for example, as seen in farming markets.

The US was a socialist project from the start, following the French revolution closely and influenced by Thomas Paine and others.
The USA constitution is pure socialism, except for turning a blind eye to slavery - Washington and others were slave owners. And turned another blind eye to the extermination of the indigenous population - a.k.a "settler colonialism" (see Israel history).
The right to bear arms was included as a means of opposing an undemocratic government and was never intended to facilitate the random shooting of school children or black people.

 

[Fergie 307]

Right-wing populism = Fascism lite

(Though I'm not sure how lite - it's still fermenting.)

There are socialist principles at work in the US. Collectives for example, as seen in farming markets.

The relative inefficiency of collective farms led to the death by starvation of millions in the Soviet Union, not sure it's a great model.

 

[AJB Temple]

The US was a socialist project from the start, following the French revolution closely and influenced by Thomas Paine and others.
The USA constitution is pure socialism, except for turning a blind eye to slavery - Washington and others were slave owners. And turned another blind eye to the extermination of the indigenous population - a.k.a "settler colonialism" (see Israel history).
The right to bear arms was included as a means of opposing an undemocratic government and was never intended to facilitate the random shooting of school children or black people.

Jacob, you are absolutely nuts

Exclude slavery, where the whites regarded enslaved negros as not human, and bred them for profit. Very socialist.

Killing the native Americans in mass genocide was OK because that was just a land grab. Socialists are of course allowed to kill indigenous people who live there because ......land ownership by socialists is fine.

The more you post, the more out of touch with decent humanity I think you are. Keep digging old fella.

 

[woodieallen]

The relative inefficiency of collective farms led to the death by starvation of millions in the Soviet Union, not sure it's a great model.

Yeah...and when that didn't work, ole' Joe decided that a mandatory famine in Ukraine was the answer. About 10 million died. Lovely chap. Think he was a communist.

 

[TRITON]

The relative inefficiency of collective farms led to the death by starvation of millions in the Soviet Union, not sure it's a great model.

Not sure what that has to do with US farms where there is no chance of people getting shot for not producing enough produce. In fact Fergie, theres a huge amount of info about it and youre generalizing and it was more down to drought and failed harvests.
Add to that the continuous war and removal of machinery to feed that.

Elsewhere that hasnt had any issue, runs from Israel, the US and Canada, India, and Mexico.

So using the brutal oppressive regime of the Soviets as your example is disingenuous to say the least.

 

[RobinBHM]

Paid leave is really just a different distribution system. It's all part of the total payroll cost and the employer factors that into the whole business budget.

USA workers take far less holiday per year than almost all of Europe, so not having mandated paid leave is unhealthy.

And let’s be honest employers set pay based on market forces, if they could somebody cheaper, they would.

America = capitalism at its finest

 

[Blackswanwood]

USA workers take far less holiday per year than almost all of Europe, so not having mandated paid leave is unhealthy.

It’s not quite as straightforward as that Robin.

USA workers “get” far less paid holiday. It differs across states as to how much paid holiday has to be provided but many employers provide it as a benefit even if not required. (Sick leave is similar)

It’s common for unpaid leave to be available and taken and as wages are generally higher it arguably evens itself out if comparing to the UK.

Undoubtedly there will be “bad” outliers and those in lower paid jobs will feel the effect of that more.

 

[mark w]

Starmer is an utter donkey and that is arguably being unkind to donkeys. He's gone to France to discuss the Trump topic???

He condoned the sending of 100 left wing activists to give support to what turned out to be the loser's presidential campaign, so why on earth would the winners see his actions as other than treacherous? That will no doubt come back to haunt Starmer and the British people at some point as I can't see the Americans trusting that silly person again.
Biden was a donkey too but not nearly as bad as Starmer.

You really couldn't make it up about Starmer, it gets worse by the day.. Only an absolute moron would have gone along with it and allowed it to happen in the first place for obvious reasons which could well be seen as electoral interference of a sovereign nation reminiscent of the communist agitation days and the left wing unions of the UK in the 60s & 70s.

You just wonder what he's going to do wrong next so please don't criticise his Tory predecessors, by Starmer's standards they were streets ahead and that doesn't say much about Starmer, that's for sure.

You are in cloud cuckoo land and about as politically astute as a deckchair. No point in trying to debate with someone who doesn't realise what the Trump topic is.

 

[Jacob]

Absolute left wing nonsense.
It's materialism which puts people into debt. In today's society given the support of benefits etc, living beyond one's means is a lifestyle choice and not an essential.

Maybe materialism, more often just sheer need, particularly for essentials such as housing purchase or rent.
It's the exploitation of both materialism and need which puts people into the wealthy sector.