P/T Spiral Cutter Block

[PeteG]

Happy New Year to everyone

I'll be upgrading my P/T soon, hopefully! I had decided on the Startrite SD31 http://www.recordpower.co.uk/produc...th-digital-readout-and-wheel-kit#.VoZuTMTPuFx but then in the past week I came across the Axminster At129 http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster-trade-series-at129pt-planer-thicknesser-ax954368 with spiral cutter block. Has anyone used this type of cutter block and is there much difference from a block with three knives?

 

[Eric The Viking]

It's worth Googling past threads here on this.

I saw a Hammer/Felder one demonstrated at one of Peter Sefton's a couple of years ago - very impressive. In short:

Pros:
- very quiet compared to a normal block
- excellent surface finish (they slice/pare rather than chisel straight into the stock)
- much lower power requirement (so everything works better/lasts longer, etc.)
- much shorter downtime if you nick a blade.

Cons:
- A complete set of cutters is a lot more expensive than simple knives (but then you only ever buy a complete set once).
- Goodness knows how you set the thing up! Meaning that the conventional blade-aligning processes won't work very easily, (but then you wouldn't because the machine is designed for the block, I'd guess).

Personally I'd be really interested to hear from anyone who doesn't like them as to why not - there must be downsides, and they are expensive, but otherwise, presently, I'm struggling to appreciate what the negatives are.

E.

 

[marcros]

simple to set up, I would imagine. the inserts are made to a high tolerance and are torqued down to a set amount. they simply cannot do wrong.

 

[Peter Sefton]

I have demonstrated the Hammer Silent Power block several times and it's very good. I don't own one but will spec it if I upgrade in the future. A few students have it in their own workshops and only have good things to say.

This is a short video of me using it a couple of years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyHi5d5aAEw

Cheers Peter

 

[PeteG]

Thanks Eric I'd read that a cutter block can last ten times longer than knives, and of course you have four edges, so I might never need to replace the cutters!
I really like the Startrite SD31 due to the quick change from planer to thicknesser, and wondered if the spiral cutter block was worth the hassle removing the fence and having gull wings on the Axminster. No doubt the SD31 having three knives will be a big step up from my Record PT260 with two knives and the cutter block another step up.
I looked at the Hammer/Felder a few days back but I think they started around £2500, which is more than I can afford. Sadly the Axminster model with the cutter block is only available on line, would have been nice to see one in store.

 

[Rhossydd]

Sadly the Axminster model with the cutter block is only available on line, would have been nice to see one in store.

I'm sure I recently had an email from Axi mentioning a demonstration of the spiral block PT in store at High Wycombe. OK a long way from you, but it might be worth a call to see if there any demonstration machines in their system closer.

 

[custard]

I've got a Felder with a quick change four knife block. I'd change to their new spiral block in a heartbeat if I had the option, it's just better in every respect, quieter, more efficient in terms of dust extraction and compaction, and most of all it gives a tear out free surface on the most demanding of surfaces without the faff of a switching to a special set of knives with a back bevel.

However, from your perspective there are two issues you need to investigate,

1. Is the Axminster spiral the same as the Felder one? I suspect all spiral blocks aren't the same and a small change in geometry makes a big difference. Certainly the vertical spiral block I sometimes use on a spindle moulder isn't a patch on the Felder planer/thicknesser horizontal block. My one leaves witness lines and doesn't offer a silver bullet solution to tear out, however I've seen the Felder block in action and it has neither of these issues.

2. Do you deal with a lot of highly figured timbers? If the answer is no then a spiral block loses much of its appeal.

In addition, I wouldn't get too excited about the knife changes on a spiral block. You can get almost tungsten carbide performance with traditional planer knives...at a price, and rotating all those square knives on a spiral block while ensuring scrupulous cleanliness and consistent tightening torque would be a right old faff!

 

[PeteG]

I have demonstrated the Hammer Silent Power block several times and it's very good. I don't own one but will spec it if I upgrade in the future. A few students have it in their own workshops and only have good things to say.

This is a short video of me using it a couple of years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyHi5d5aAEw

Cheers Peter

Thank you Pete What is the timber in the video? The sound isn't working on my laptop so can't here a thing!

I've got a Felder with a quick change four knife block. I'd change to their new spiral block in a heartbeat if I had the option, it's just better in every respect, quieter, more efficient in terms of dust extraction and compaction, and most of all it gives a tear out free surface on the most demanding of surfaces without the faff of a switching to a special set of knives with a back bevel.

However, from your perspective there are two issues you need to investigate,

1. Is the Axminster spiral the same as the Felder one? I suspect all spiral blocks aren't the same and a small change in geometry makes a big difference. Certainly the vertical spiral block I sometimes use on a spindle moulder isn't a patch on the Felder planer/thicknesser horizontal block. My one leaves witness lines and doesn't offer a silver bullet solution to tear out, however I've seen the Felder block in action and it has neither of these issues.

2. Do you deal with a lot of highly figured timbers? If the answer is no then a spiral block loses much of its appeal.

In addition, I wouldn't get too excited about the knife changes on a spiral block. You can get almost tungsten carbide performance with traditional planer knives...at a price, and rotating all those square knives on a spiral block while ensuring scrupulous cleanliness and consistent tightening torque would be a right old faff!

I can't find the link now but I was reading an article last week that stated there were two types, sadly I can't remember what they both are, but the Axminster apparently is a spur type.
Over the past year I've bought mainly oak board ends which have been fine for what I've made, but I have new plans for this year. I picked up several boards last week, beech, lime, elm and I think one is apple. Haven't prepared boards like this before and in two minds whether or not to wait until I get a new P/T. So to answer one of your questions, I'm planning or hoping to have a selection of figured timbers!

 

[Wizard9999]

Pete

I have seen the new Axi P/T in store so have a couple of thoughts.

The change over is really awful, it involves removing the guard, tilting the fence, removing defence and then flipping tables. I have tried it myself in store, it is enough to make me really question if I could live with the machine.

The in store team on two occassions told me the central Axi technical team say the spiral cutter gives a worse finish than the standard cutter blades.

Basingstoke have told me that after their recent planer day event they would retain the spiral cutter machine and have one in store to view, so I agree that other stores may well have them.

Hope that helps.
Terry.

 

[Peter Sefton]

The timber in the video was a Felder customers Quilted Canadian Maple, he bought it in to see how the planer would cope, he and I were pleasantly surprised.

He makes fantastic guitars and the new planer has made his life a lot easier, take a look at his work if you get a chance.

http://www.jjguitars.com

Cheers Peter

 

[PeteG]

Pete

I have seen the new Axi P/T in store so have a couple of thoughts.

The change over is really awful, it involves removing the guard, tilting the fence, removing defence and then flipping tables. I have tried it myself in store, it is enough to make me really question if I could live with the machine.

The in store team on two occassions told me the central Axi technical team say the spiral cutter gives a worse finish than the standard cutter blades.

Basingstoke have told me that after their recent planer day event they would retain the spiral cutter machine and have one in store to view, so I agree that other stores may well have them.

Hope that helps.
Terry.

Thank you Terry I saw a little video of the change over, and it was that that got me thinking if having the spiral cutter was worth putting up with the change over, I suppose it would be if the cutter was a good'un. I'll stick my original plan and go for the Startrite I think.

 

[deema]

I would be interest in the views of anyone who has owned a spiral block for sometime and used it in anger. I looked at the spiral block when I upgraded, the thing that put me off were

1. Changing all of those inserts requires I thought an awful of fiddly screw removal. My P/T gets gummed up with resin and I could see the screw heads being very difficult to get a driver in after a bit of soft wood had gone through.

2. Resin gets everywhere, and could/ will form a lip where the inset seats. This would need to be removed before replacing with a new insert. Again, I didn't fancy the challenge.

3. Any 'rubbish' under the insert will cause an uneven plane, equally I wasn't certain that all inserts are made exactly the same so changing a few may cause problems with uneven heights.

In the end I opted for a 4 knife Tersa block. I think they are brilliant as you can change a knife in literally10 seconds. I think like the majority of people I don't use highly figured wood that often...but when I do I use a drum sander.....so the main advantage claimed for the spiral block would seldom I think for most people be a real advantage.

There are I feel a lot of advantages with a Tersa block.

1. You can change a knife in seconds, or if you get a chip just push the life over a few mm, again in seconds
2. No setup what so ever.
3. I use a set of CR blades (cheap) that I put in when I'm planing dirty wood that may have grit, paint or any other contaminient. This saves the decent / expensive blades. The change over in less than a minute makes this both feasible and economic.
4. A 4 knife block gives a better finish that a spiral block when compared sure by side IMO.
5. Blades are nit expensive relatively speaking, about the same as a resharpen of a standard blade. (Each blade has two sides when comparing prices)

 

[Wizard9999]

I'll stick my original plan and go for the Startrite I think.

Pete, as you may have seen in other threads I am also in the market for a planer thicknesser. The Startrite is also on my list as well, but I need to convince myself that I want to spend that much. Another candidate is the Jet JPT-260, I wondered if you have also considered it and if you have discounted it whether you would share your reasons? One thing you can say about the Jet for sure is that change over is a piece of cake - flip two levers and the planer beds flip up as one without the need to remove anything.

EDIT: Just been looking online again at Axminster and RP websites. Don't know why I haven't noticed this before, but the Jet JPT-310 and the Startrite SD31 look very similar and the spec sheets are also very similar. So I am now wondering if these are based on the same machine with some minor manufacturer specific tweaks. If this were the case then the Jet JPT-260 would be a smaller version of the SD31 (but RP do not chose to have that model for their range). Can anyone refute or confirm this theory?

Terry.

 

[PeteG]

The timber in the video was a Felder customers Quilted Canadian Maple, he bought it in to see how the planer would cope, he and I were pleasantly surprised.

He makes fantastic guitars and the new planer has made his life a lot easier, take a look at his work if you get a chance.

http://www.jjguitars.com

Cheers Peter

Thanks Peter. The grain is stunning on that Maple, my first thoughts where it had been several boards joined to create the pattern. I mentioned that I have mainly bought oak board ends, a few months back
I picked up some elm for the first time and was really excited when I saw the grain after planing. Although it took some sanding!

I would be interest in the views of anyone who has owned a spiral block for sometime and used it in anger. I looked at the spiral block when I upgraded, the thing that put me off were

1. Changing all of those inserts requires I thought an awful of fiddly screw removal. My P/T gets gummed up with resin and I could see the screw heads being very difficult to get a driver in after a bit of soft wood had gone through.

2. Resin gets everywhere, and could/ will form a lip where the inset seats. This would need to be removed before replacing with a new insert. Again, I didn't fancy the challenge.

3. Any 'rubbish' under the insert will cause an uneven plane, equally I wasn't certain that all inserts are made exactly the same so changing a few may cause problems with uneven heights.

In the end I opted for a 4 knife Tersa block. I think they are brilliant as you can change a knife in literally10 seconds. I think like the majority of people I don't use highly figured wood that often...but when I do I use a drum sander.....so the main advantage claimed for the spiral block would seldom I think for most people be a real advantage.

There are I feel a lot of advantages with a Tersa block.

1. You can change a knife in seconds, or if you get a chip just push the life over a few mm, again in seconds
2. No setup what so ever.
3. I use a set of CR blades (cheap) that I put in when I'm planing dirty wood that may have grit, paint or any other contaminient. This saves the decent / expensive blades. The change over in less than a minute makes this both feasible and economic.
4. A 4 knife block gives a better finish that a spiral block when compared sure by side IMO.
5. Blades are nit expensive relatively speaking, about the same as a resharpen of a standard blade. (Each blade has two sides when comparing prices)

Quite a few points a hadn't thought about there Deema, although I rarely use softwood. I looked at buying a drum sander a few months back but sadly I won't have the space once the new P/T arrives.
Is the 4 knife Tersa block an after market purchase?

I'll stick my original plan and go for the Startrite I think.

Pete, as you may have seen in other threads I am also in the market for a planer thicknesser. The Startrite is also on my list as well, but I need to convince myself that I want to spend that much. Another candidate is the Jet JPT-260, I wondered if you have also considered it and if you have discounted it whether you would share your reasons? One thing you can say about the Jet for sure is that change over is a piece of cake - flip two levers and the planer beds flip up as one without the need to remove anything.

EDIT: Just been looking online again at Axminster and RP websites. Don't know why I haven't noticed this before, but the Jet JPT-310 and the Startrite SD31 look very similar and the spec sheets are also very similar. So I am now wondering if these are based on the same machine with some minor manufacturer specific tweaks. If this were the case then the Jet JPT-260 would be a smaller version of the SD31 (but RP do not chose to have that model for their range). Can anyone refute or confirm this theory?

Terry.

Hello Terry I looked at the Jet JPT-310 which has similar planing spec to SD31, but it's £150 more and weighs 75 kilo more than the Startrite. What puts me off about buying Jet is, the Jet pillar drill I bought only lasted several weeks, Axminster replaced it for one of their own Trade series, and the Jet bobbin sander broke after several months. Axminster collected/repaired and returned it within a couple of weeks.
I know Axminster are great at sorting problems out, but after the Axminster Trade P/T I bought last year that didn't work on delivery, you have to wait for their own vans to be in the area again before they collect large/heavy items, which can be weeks.

 

[Doug B]

I've not found any problem re resin blocking screw heads though it does build up under the tips & in the gullet just as it does on a standard block, both clean easily with cellulose thinners.
Tersa blades are quicker to change but the tips need turning less often as they wear slower.
The spiral block in my Hammer gives a better finish than the Tersa type block of the Felder machine I use on site, so much so that I've taken Colombian pine from work back to my shop to machine so as to reduce sanding.

 

[Wizard9999]

Pete

I was more wondering about the smaller Jet JPT-260, rather than the 310, which means the Jet is cheaper than the Startrite. But it sounds like you have not had great experience with other Jet products so I can understand why you would not be keen on going that route.

Terry.

 

[Ring]

Wish I could get them for my Elektra Beckum hc260 would love an upgrade

 

[PeteG]

Pete

I was more wondering about the smaller Jet JPT-260, rather than the 310, which means the Jet is cheaper than the Startrite. But it sounds like you have not had great experience with other Jet products so I can understand why you would not be keen on going that route.

Terry.

It's a 12 inch planing width I'm also after Terry. I've been looking at the Hammer/Felder site but found myself getting far too excited!
I see Kendal Tools have a Charnwood 12 x 9, W590 for £1380.00, it's not a brand I know but ticks all the boxes.

 

[Wizard9999]

Pete

I was more wondering about the smaller Jet JPT-260, rather than the 310, which means the Jet is cheaper than the Startrite. But it sounds like you have not had great experience with other Jet products so I can understand why you would not be keen on going that route.

Terry.

It's a 12 inch planing width I'm also after Terry. I've been looking at the Hammer/Felder site but found myself getting far too excited!
I see Kendal Tools have a Charnwood 12 x 9, W590 for £1380.00, it's not a brand I know but ticks all the boxes.

In which case I can see why you have landed at the Startrite. I have ruled even the baby Hammer out on cost grounds, I have watched and sometimes bid on second hand Hammers on eBay but even these seem to go for more than a new Startrite which is the price point my bidding stops. Not sure of any time constraints you have, but I got a great deal on my RP bandsaw at one of the shows they attend, so may be worth trying to make a purchase at a show somewhere near.

Terry.

 

[heimlaga]

There is a certain degree of hype in cutterheads.
As a matter of fact most new professional grade machines have tersa heads which have the same cutting geometry as traditional straight knife heads. It is quicker to change disposable Tersa knives than to change and set traditional knives. Those 15-20 minutes saved every time makes a huge lot of money if the machinery has costed millions and produces a lot of stuff in 20 minutes.
I find my gibbed two knife head from 1957 to be perfactly satisfying for a part timer working mostly pine and birch. There is no need to spend money on changing a concept that works perfectly. However I have been told that people who regularly work a lot of very figured hardwood (canadian curly mapple) find traditional heads to be rather unsuitable and spiral heads to be a bit better for thast purpose.

With that said..... have you considered secondhand? That is often a good way to go if money is tight and you want a good quality machine with good capacity.
You must always account for some repair costs and repair time when buying secondhand but you will most likely have a tremendous leverage on your invested money. As your own time is free from income tax and commuting costs and VAT you will find that you can afford to invest quite a few hours.
If you have 3 small kids and no time secondhand isn't a good way to go......but if your life situation allows thast is where you find the best deals.