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Well neither does charging about waving a samurai sword, per se!

LOL

Good discussion point -

- samurai swords are produced for one reason, as a weapon with which to kill - whereas cars are made for one reason as a mode of personal transportation, designed to travel at any arbitrary speed.

- should we ban table saws/band saws, or limit the blade speed, etc?

- propose that 30mph and 40 mph are the sacrosanct areas that ought to be highly enforced (provided they are properly designated!) whereas travelling at an arbitrary speed down a well sighted country lane, on a fine clear dry day, is "safe".
 
Oh back to vacuous 'just be open minded'. See sadistic murderers and cannibals - I have heard there are specialist forums for the latter at least (where some German guy is said to have found a volunteer to be eaten). All good right, imbibing a bit of that will just make one better educated and with a broader spectrum of views to take into account?

We are in the cold phase of a war to preserve western democracy against the rise of authoritarian power, and I do think it is incumbent on good citizens to think about what (mis and dis) information they are listening to and spreading. However, no-one is actually going to censor it out of existence (and who could, unless perhaps they had moderator powers I suppose).
So the suggestion is that reading Mein Kampf is akin to murder and cannibalism?

Baffling!

We know better than cannibals and mass murderers, right? We think we know better and that it is in their (and our) best interest not to be able to eat and sadistically kill some of the rest of us. They obviously disagree but there is a democratic consensus that they should not be able to exercise their freedom of choice.
 
So the suggestion is that reading Mein Kampf is akin to murder and cannibalism?

Baffling!
You so open minded guys seem to be very closed minded when it comes to arguing by analogy and extrapolation. I'm not sure I see that much difference between the ravings of Hitler and the writings of drooling wannabe cannibals.

Personally I'm at peace with reading neither because both would be a complete waste of my time. I don't think that makes me not open minded to anything reasonable, just not so open minded that my brain fell out.
 
You so open minded guys seem to be very closed minded when it comes to arguing by analogy and extrapolation. I'm not sure I see that much difference between the ravings of Hitler and the writings of drooling wannabe cannibals.

Personally I'm at peace with reading neither because both would be a complete waste of my time. I don't think that makes me not open minded to anything reasonable, just not so open minded that my brain fell out.
Its not that I'm closed minded to your analogy, it's that it doesn't make sense!

Reading Mein Kampf will not make you want to annihilate a particular race or religion, just as reading the ramblings of a cannibal will not make you want to eat a man. You're free not to read them, but others should be free to if they so choose. That doesn't mean either choice makes you more or less open minded.
 
Its not that I'm closed minded to your analogy, it's that it doesn't make sense!

Reading Mein Kampf will not make you want to annihilate a particular race or religion,
Not per se, but at the margin of a sufficiently large cohort of readers there will be those who are influenced. Much more so if the book is presented to them as a component of wider fascist propaganda, which most certainly it often is.
n.b. it isn't banned - it's freely available for anybody to read, so there is no issue of "authoritarian" censorship.
 
It is quite revealing that Sir K has apparently accepted in excess of £40k in gratuities, just since becoming PM. Nice work if you can get it.
And he has agreed to repay a few grand, how very generous of him.
So much for an end to Tory style sleaze.
They are all the b£@@d√ same we are the gun fodder they tax us good job if you can get it
 
.........

My position is that any ruling party/person that wants to subjugate you is reliant on you not questioning things until you're already in chains.....
Or alternatively, if they have saved you from self harm they may be hoping that you appreciate the fact, be grateful and recognise the error of your ways.
Now much to late to do anything about climate change, we should have subjugated the stupid bas-tards sceptics a long way back!
Nigel Lawson; fancy allowing that ridiculous buffoon so much air time!
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...r-interview-climate-sceptic-lord-nigel-lawson
 
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They are all the b£@@d√ same we are the gun fodder they tax us good job if you can get it

Below is the 'wrap sheet'. It smacks of 'fiddling while Rome Burns', or 'Let then eat Cake'.

'The more he talked of his honour - the faster I counted my spoons'.

(Ralph Waldo Emerson, 1803 - 1882).

Disgraceful.
 

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Below is the 'wrap sheet'. It smacks of 'fiddling while Rome Burns', or 'Let then eat Cake'.

'The more he talked of his honour - the faster I counted my spoons'.

(Ralph Waldo Emerson, 1803 - 1882).

Disgraceful.
Didn't seem to be an issue til Labour started getting more gifts than the Conservatives, which happened first time this year.

Politicians gifts.jpg
 
Didn't seem to be an issue til Labour started getting more gifts than the Conservatives, which happened first time this year.

View attachment 189515
I don't think that's the point. What riles is that those very same politicians while in opposition blasted the Tories for exactly what they are doing themselves and they made a huge fuss about being the party to clean up politics, stop corruption and be honest and transparent. They clearly think the general public are both blind and thick.

Sanctimonious hypocrites.
 
Nope,

and Nope.

It's really important to get the fact straight if they are to be the basis of one's viewpoint.

Firstly, you only know about this because he entered everything into the record of interests. All of it was within the rules. There is categorically no evidence or implication of wrongdoing or "corruption". No "investigative journalism" was performed, or even possible, because nothing at all that you have seen (secondhand, with spin attached) was outside of the public record. Digging has of course been going on, but nothing at all has been uncovered, otherwise we'd definitely all know about it (and I'd be first in line to condemn Starmer).

Corruption would be where, for instance:

An MP deliberately avoided entering gifts into the register.
Failed to respond about where gifts had been accepted when questioned. (And further doubled down by insisting that they no longer had access to that info because they'd lost their phone, changed their phone, etc and didn't retain messages,,,)
Accepted a gift on a direct promise of acting on the donor's financial interests, or worse, acting *illegally* in the direct financial interest of the donor,
etc...

None of what has happened with Starmer (and this connects with the second question nicely) has had any impropriety attached.

MPs accept gifts. Whether you like that or not is a different discussion altogether.

So we can categorically refute your claim of any corruption.

Secondly, the timescale in question was over the period of the last 4 years. WHEN LABOUR WERE IN OPPOSITION.
Two things can be deduced from this.
It reinforces the point that no corruption would even be possible. Labour were not in power and Starmer had no control over policy or funding decisions. I think we can safely doubly put the claim of corruption to bed.
Also your second claim about "doubling salary" or whatever you said, is rendered entirely untrue. It was over 4 years. Before entering government.


I suspect that the basis of your viewpoint is not founded upon the facts and evidence outlined above, but rather something else (and possibly pre-existing bias?).
Incredibly naive to suppose that the fact Starmer, or any other current cabinet minister was in opposition precludes any wrongdoing.
For how long would you say it was apparent that the Tories were probably going to lose?
I would argue certainly since Truss, and arguably well before.
Perfectly sensible for anyone seeking the ear of a future government to start grooming them early on.
As others have said very difficult to prove any corruption, unless those involved are very stupid. And to be clear I am not suggesting the passing of brown envelopes in return for some specific legislation for example.
But do you seriously believe that when people from a gambling organisation, for instance, "entertain" politicians, they do not take the opportunity to put across their point of view, or at the very least to ensure that they have banked a favourable impression of their business?
Why else would they be doing it?
Whether it was within the rules is completely irrelevant to the point I was making.
Here is a man who has repeatedly promised us a new beginning and an end to sleazy behaviour.
Anyone with a IQ in double figures ought to have been able to see how his acceptance of thousands of pounds in freebies since becoming PM would look in the light of these promises, within the rules or not.
So he is either too thick to have worked it out, or too arrogant to care.
Neither qualities I would like to see in someone in his position.
I have to conclude that you are either touchingly naive, or perhaps you have your own bias at work?
 
I don't think that's the point. What riles is that those very same politicians while in opposition blasted the Tories for exactly what they are doing themselves and they made a huge fuss about being the party to clean up politics, stop corruption and be honest and transparent. They clearly think the general public are both blind and thick.

Sanctimonious hypocrites.
I thought the real issue in the past was politicians failing to declare what they were being gifted and financial advantages they were covertly given.
 
Didn't seem to be an issue til Labour started getting more gifts than the Conservatives, which happened first time this year.

View attachment 189515
And interesting how it starts to move from Tories to Labour around the time it started to become apparent who was likely to win the next election.
Could be purely coincidental of course :)
 
I thought the real issue in the past was politicians failing to declare what they were being gifted and financial advantages they were covertly given.
The real issue in the present is we are governed by a Party voted for by one person in every five, expressly elected because they were to be whiter than white and clean up politics (not before time), instead of which they're proving to be a self righteous bunch of lying, money grabbing hypocrites.
 
Well, Adolf hoped it would.
Slight thread drift, but did anyone see the BBC report unmasking the man behind one of the worst of the white supremacist anti immigrant sites connected with the recent riots, the banner of which was "we love Hitler" or similar.
Blow me down if he wasn't a mixed race guy.
Very possibly an immigrant himself.
I bet a few of his supporters must have had a WTF moment seeing that.
 
Slight thread drift, but did anyone see the BBC report unmasking the man behind one of the worst of the white supremacist anti immigrant sites connected with the recent riots, the banner of which was "we love Hitler" or similar.
Blow me down if he wasn't a mixed race guy.
Very possibly an immigrant himself.
I bet a few of his supporters must have had a WTF moment seeing that.
Yes, very odd. But then, I guess such people are very odd, their thoughts and actions completely incoherent.
 
Politicians, of any persuasion, are human beings. They crave recognition. Rewarding them with premium tickets, designer garbs, etc flatters them. They adore approbation - reinforcing the illusion that their actions have support and contribute to our well being.

Tickets, clothes, fancy apartments, etc are not perceived as "bribes" but confirm their status.

But those providing such ego reinforcement know that they have unique access. Not necessarily directly for corrupt intent, but to allow them to influence, change priorities, place pressure, etc.

This the inevitable consequence of a democratic political system (possibly any system). To expect Labour to behave differently is naïve. They are politicians and acceptance of largesse goes with the territory.

As disgusting a group as their predecessors!!
.
 
So the suggestion is that reading Mein Kampf is akin to murder and cannibalism?

Baffling!
You so open minded guys seem to be very closed minded when it comes to arguing by analogy and extrapolation. I'm not sure I see that much difference between the ravings of Hitler and the writings of drooling wannabe cannibals.

Personally I'm at peace with reading neither because both would be a complete waste of my time. I don't think that makes me not open minded to anything reasonable, just not so open minded that my brain fell out.
On the other hand you could argue that if you have any interest in history then you might view it as essential reading, if only as an insight into how something as appalling as the holocaust could take place, or the mindset of the man responsible for the second world war.
 
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