Freehand Sharpening - which technique?

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

If its common practice to use a grinding jig to work an accurate primary bevel ; why is then deemed unsavoury practice by some to use a honing jig to obtain a similar accuracy with the secondary bevel. As someone who hones freehand; I have no concerns at all with others choosing to use a jig. It is the final result that matters most; and not necessarily the technique being used to achieve that outcome.

Stewy, I think that some take their sharpening more seriously than others. The nuances of uber sharpness escape me, but then they obviously stand out for others. Perhaps guides are too girlie for them? Or that freehanding is ongoing training in eye-hand coordination, and there are limitations in sharpening when outside the range of a guide. It may be argued that (and I would agree) the hollow grind is essentially a jig. The only important factor for me is that freehanding is less intrusive that setting up a honing guide. Personally, I do not like the distraction of sharpening once busy. Others may welcome this as a chance to catch their breath. Anyway, I agree with you, whatever gets your blade sharp ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Andy Kev.]

I have a feeling that contributing to a sharpening thread is a bit like going paddling in a shark-infested lagoon but here goes: I'm generally happy to hone the secondary bevel on plane blades and chisels of 3/8" and wider by hand but I go by something which nobody else has so far mentioned and which undoubtedly will get me burned at the stake for some kind of heresy and that something is ... the sound. I've come to the conclusion that when I hear that sort of grinding (no pun intended) noise which occurs once I've elevated the blade above a certain angle, then I know that sharpening is happening and then its just a matter of keeping my body position (arms etc.) rigid so as to maintain consistency. Works every time and the sharpness achieved seems good enough too.

Is this going to get me booted out of the guild?

 

[bugbear]

If its common practice to use a grinding jig to work an accurate primary bevel ;

Interesting - in my use of the double bevel approach, as long as the primary is less-than the secondary, it'll do. So I work it freehand, on 40 or 60 grit AlZi (coarsest and fastest abrasive I have in the workshop).

I work a perfectly consistent (and tiny) secondary using a Eclipse jig, wooden block to set the projection the same every time, and fine abrasives.

BugBear

 

[Trafalgar]

Frank Klausz:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAR9fyXV8go

 

[Cheshirechappie]

On the subject of 'freehand' and 'grinding' - I found myself doing more and more of this as time went on. When I bought the Tormek,I bought several jigs with it, but found that unless the wheel was kept perfectly true across it's width, I got all sorts of odd anomalies. In frustration and too much of a hurry one day, I just freehanded it against the wheel, moving left and right across, and to my surprise ended up with a perfectly adequate grind very quickly.

Another factor was the cost of replacement wheels. It started at 8" diameter. It's below 7" now, and if I kept on truing it up it would be down to the spindle in no time. However, my wallet protested loudly at the best part of a hundred quid for a new one, so even though the current one is egg-shaped, and often tapered or out of true on the periphery, I never true it, just use it. The jig bar is still there as a sort of tool rest if I need one, but it never sees a jig. Just grind on the high parts of the wheel until they wear down - the tool goes up and down as the egg shape keeps coming round, but it still works. I keep a small engineer's square and a bevel angle gauge handy to check progress, but it's amazing how close you get to what you want even without them, once you've had a bit of practice.

I'm not suggesting that as best practice (or even good practice!) but it does work, for me anyway.

Same with the hand-crank grinder - the only jigging on that is a little bit of bent metal as a sort of crude tool-rest, but that's all that's needed. The great plus with the hand-crank is that you can stop cranking at the slightest sign of any trouble, so using one takes out all the fraught, tense feelings you get approaching a powered grinder.

 

[Jacob]

You've hit on the basic jig paradox: 1. They don't work well unless the stone is flat 2. If you use them at all the stone goes out of flat.

Freehand works on a less than flat stone and also can help flatten it.
You flatten the stone as you sharpen, instead of buying an expensive diamond plate (or whatever) and wasting the stone (and the diamond) by using it for flattening.

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

You've hit on the basic jig paradox: 1. They don't work well unless the stone is flat 2. If you use them at all the stone goes out of flat.

Freehand works on a less than flat stone and also can help flatten it.
You flatten the stone as you sharpen, instead of buying an expensive diamond plate (or whatever) and wasting the stone (and the diamond) by using it for flattening.

Agreed and freehand lets you use all of a stone, and, if you wish use a smaller (cheaper in price) better stone.

 

[bugbear]

You've hit on the basic jig paradox: 1. They don't work well unless the stone is flat

Simply not true.

But I'll give you a fair chance: please explain in detail what problems you think (say) a 1/8" hollow (a LOT of wear) in the length of a 8" stone would cause in use of the usual Eclipse jig.

BugBear

 

[Trafalgar]

Surely everybody has seen the old Stanley jig that does not run on the stone. Only the item being sharpened contacted the stone. And then there is the jig in the Klausz video I posted a few entries above.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

You've hit on the basic jig paradox: 1. They don't work well unless the stone is flat 2. If you use them at all the stone goes out of flat.

Freehand works on a less than flat stone and also can help flatten it.
You flatten the stone as you sharpen, instead of buying an expensive diamond plate (or whatever) and wasting the stone (and the diamond) by using it for flattening.

I was referring to grindstones rather than flat honing stones.

I use the grinder as a fairly 'coarse' tool just to shift waste metal quickly, and don't bother too much about the finished shape of the ground bevel - as long as there's enough metal left behind the edge to support it for the work it's intended to do (chisel), and there's enough clearance that it won't interfere with the workpiece (plane iron), that's all that's needed. The flat faces - the jigging face of a chisel, and the cap-iron seat of a plane-iron - do not contact the grindstone at any time.

Honing stones, on the other hand, do define the working edge, and do contact the flat face to back off the wire edge. Therefore, it helps if they're maintained as flat as the faces you want to work on them, to avoid developing bellied flat faces on chisels and plane irons..

Well, that's my approach, anyway.

 

[bugbear]

You've hit on the basic jig paradox: 1. They don't work well unless the stone is flat 2. If you use them at all the stone goes out of flat.

Freehand works on a less than flat stone and also can help flatten it.
You flatten the stone as you sharpen, instead of buying an expensive diamond plate (or whatever) and wasting the stone (and the diamond) by using it for flattening.

I was referring to grindstones rather than flat honing stones.

I use the grinder as a fairly 'coarse' tool just to shift waste metal quickly, and don't bother too much about the finished shape of the ground bevel - as long as there's enough metal left behind the edge to support it for the work it's intended to do (chisel), and there's enough clearance that it won't interfere with the workpiece (plane iron), that's all that's needed. The flat faces - the jigging face of a chisel, and the cap-iron seat of a plane-iron - do not contact the grindstone at any time.

Honing stones, on the other hand, do define the working edge, and do contact the flat face to back off the wire edge. Therefore, it helps if they're maintained as flat as the faces you want to work on them, to avoid developing bellied flat faces on chisels and plane irons..

Well, that's my approach, anyway.

Ah - so my points on stones don't apply to what you said; sorry.

BugBear

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Surely everybody has seen the old Stanley jig that does not run on the stone. Only the item being sharpened contacted the stone. And then there is the jig in the Klausz video I posted a few entries above.

Nothing at all wrong with either, but neither quite fall within the thread title of 'freehand sharpening'.

 

[Trafalgar]

Nor do the six or so other posts that mention jigs...

 

[Jacob]

Surely everybody has seen the old Stanley jig that does not run on the stone. Only the item being sharpened contacted the stone. And then there is the jig in the Klausz video I posted a few entries above.

Nothing at all wrong with either, but neither quite fall within the thread title of 'freehand sharpening'.

It's not running on or off the stone that is the jig problem (just one of them :roll: )
It's the fact that the wheel is behind the edge rather than in front. This means you can raise the angle and round over.
Nobody wants this. Not least because it requires care and a bit of force to keep both the wheel and the edge in contact together.
BUT with the wheel in front you could dip the handle, round under and be quite confident that you were sharpening, with zero risk of increasing the honing angle, and all your effort going into edge contact with no fine control needed.
Jig AND rounded bevel!! The perfect combination (except you don't really need the jig).
I've raised this lotsa times and even posted up photos of prototype which worked really well.
I'm really surprised that non of the toolies have taken it up, e.g for the Mk99 "improved" model of their range of dud jigs. :lol:

 

[n0legs]

Well as some of you may remember on another sharpening thread I posted how it's done in the land of n0legs, I have an update for you.

Another member contacted me, in utmost secreacy, telling me that has grandfather had a 27 cut file. Now this is truly something to behold. 25 cuts finer than a 2nd cut, you must be joking. Anyway said member assured me it was mine for the taking, only problem it was in Chile!
His grandfather had loaned it to the great Chilean sharpening master Vicente Riquelme quite some time ago, but was sure he still had it.
Well what's a guy to do?
I'll tell you what a guys to do, get on a plane pretty damn quick and haul *** to Chile. Couldn't miss the chance of a 27 cut file, no way.
Anyways I checked the calendar and decided with the daughters wedding coming up that that would be a good time to go. Don't worry I wasn't going to miss the wedding, it's just the time the good woman takes to get ready I would have at least three days where she wouldn't notice me AWOL.
Booked it, packed it and f***** off.
Arrival.
Well didn't I feel the right pratt. There's me in hawiian shirt, cargo shorts and hiking boots only to find Chile is more urbanised than Birmingham and London combined. There's no forests or jungle, rivers and streams it looks like the headquarters of RMC (now Cemex). Concrete plazas, eight lane highway everywhere, tower blocks of glass and steel. Not a favela or bodega in site, Wimpy homes everywhere, nice ones too.

So realising my faux pas it was straight into the nearest outfitters for a suit. Cracking three piece double breasted I bought, in charcoal. Silk shirt, black and an ever so gorgeous pink bow tie. Looking the part, yes sir!
Suited and booted I was ready for action. Called a cab gave the driver this Vicentes last known address and off we go.
Funny really how things turn out, he was just round the corner, I mean literaly just round the corner. I parked my *** in the cab and was getting out 30 seconds later. How hum thinks I.

With a tentative knock on the door I was met by a rather attractive young woman. I won't be saying anymore than that, I've been married and divorced I know the costs. This young lady asks me in and indicates for me to follow her to the rear of the house, the language barrier was a problem. There's me in Wenglish and her in Dutch, it was a right old laugh I can tell you.
We sat at a table where she offered me some fresh coffee and a Bourbon biscuit. In my best Dutch, interspersed with Cantonese and Esperanto, I explained the reason for my visit. No, no, no way was her response. Now not being some kind of dummy I drew out my Sig and duly explained this was my prefered method of negotiation. Hell, it's worked for the past 20 years with the kids and the good woman, please don't think I'm some kind of brute I use the paintball gun with the 2 year old granddaughter.
The drawing of the gun changed things somewhat. She explained she was the youngest of Vicente's 28 daughters ( get a telly fella, jeezz!) and at 19 (36,22,32) was very protective of her father and wasn't going to give up the file easily. The story went on for ages and not being one for a yarn or fairytale, I laid down the law. I want the file. No!
Right, great!
Stalemate.
Well so it seemed. But you know when that moment arrives when the stars are all aligned, the old deck was stacked in your favour? Well this was my moment.
Behold, in walks the great man himself. I could hardly believe it, there in front of me was the great Vicente Riquelme carrier bag in hand.
It seemed he had just popped out to the Spar for some bacon and eggs, he had a guest arriving later and was wanting to offer him the national dish of a fried egg and bacon sandwich on specially imported Hovis wholegrain bread. I wouldn't have minded one myself to be honest, but the nerves had gotten at my stomach and doubted I would be able to finish one.
He asked me what it was I wanted so I went into the story of my quest, to achieve the sharpest edge attainable.
The great man sat in thought, he shifted in his seat a few times. Mumbled something to himself a few times until he decided, no problem "you can have the file" he says. Like manna from heaven, in my ears I could hear Leonard Cohen "Hallelujah, hallelujah". I had made it, all this way and I would be leaving with my elusive quarry.
I could have kissed him, and I don't mean not one of those peck on the cheek granny kisses either, full on tongue action is the way I roll.

Still in a state of shock he instructs me to follow him, we pass through a door into the kitchen then into the understairs cupboard. With a quick flash of the hand a secret button was pressed and the wall rolled back, exposing a stairway going down. Again instructed to follow him we descended the stairs.
Okay time to go off on a tangent. You know in the movie "Angels and Demons", the Papal Vaults scenes with all the books? Well this is where Ron Howard got the idea. Bulletproof glass, atmospheric control, automatic doors, chamber music, vending machine and a rest room. It makes my sharpening chamber at home look decidedly mickey mouse.
It's all there guys, everything.
Oil stones, water stones, milk stones and kidney stones. Scary sharp and not so scary sharp. Hand cranked wheels, belt driven wheels, wind and water powered. There's the new Tormek3i, (everyone knows the injected version will be faster than the carbureted) and the Sorby ProEdge Pro Pro (coming to our shores in the autumn).
Even The Edge was there. Ever wondered how Bono keeps the Edge so sharp, well here's the answer. Obvious really.
Mind you at first I couldn't understand a bloody word he said, just a mixture of thick Irish Gaelic until Vicente threw him a microphone and a six string axe. Cleared him up a treat.

Anyway, the old guy shuffles over to his bench for the file. You should have seen this place, wow! wee!. This guy can get an edge on anything and I mean anything. Ever seen a sharpened sweeping brush? I doubt you have. Why sweep when you can shave, right? Incredible, absoulutely amazing. There's some stuff I can't mention, sworn to secrecy you see, but wow truly wow.
He hands me the file with the kind of reverence one would hand over a new born. This guy lives for sharpening, he has no other reason to exist. I'm sure there was a tear in his eye but he gave me the file anyway.
This thing is fine, not fine in a cute girl with a hot writhing body covered in sweat sort of way, it's like a bar of steel with a handle. I know I can make this work for me, I just know it. Look out chisels, knives and plane irons, you are going to the next level.

With my booty in hand it's time to make my farewells and leave. I thank Vicente and say goodbye to The Edge. I wish he'd kept the mic, I have no idea what he said, but I nodded wished him the best and made my way up the stairs I promised Vicente and his daughter I would one day return and made for the door.
Not wishing to make the same mistake twice I didn't call a cab, I decided to walk back to the airport. It gave me time to reflect on my day and relish in the knowledge I could go further with my sharpening than ever before. I'm pretty sure Jacob and BB are aware of Vicente and have been keeping him and his knowledge from us mere mortals for our own good. I will never forget meeting the great man and what he has given me.

The flight back was okay, slight hiccup though as I had to land at Bristol. No worries there though really, as I do enjoy looking at the old place as I pass through. Travelling down the Portway always gives me the chance to marvel at Brunels suspension bridge. I wonder what would have Brunel used for sharpening? Who knows?
At the bridge I showed my credentials and entered the motherland, home. This taffy boy loves the travel but damn it's good to be home. The good woman hadn't even noticed I'd gone, she did comment on my new suit but said she wasn't keen on my bow tie. What the hell does she know!

As for the file, well to be honest dear reader I haven't used it yet. With comments such as the good woman's I should use it on my tongue and give her what for, but that's for another time. So far I have successfuly bluntened three chisels and one plane iron, seems daft really considering the effort I put in to get them sharp in the first place, but such is the need for a trial of the file.
I will report back my findings in due course, don't worry my friends we've come too far to turn back now.
Signing out for now, n0legs.

 

[Trafalgar]

General makes a clone of the old Stanley jig that did not run on the stone:

http://www.amazon.com/General-Tools-Chi ... B00004T7PB

I am not proposing the use of a jig (though they're handy for rebate planes) just addressing the notion that their running on top of the stone is an issue. It's not. There are jigs that present only the cutter being sharpened to the stone.

 

[swagman]

That the top surface of the honing stone needs to be reasonably flat to use a honing guide efficiently I thought was a bit of a gimme.

Moving on to a slightly different subject ;

A question for Derek C. re Tormek Wet Grinding. If the tool steel being worked was restricted to D2 and below; how would you rate the efficiency of Tormek compared to that of your current cbn Dry Grinding system. (I am looking at upgrading my current bench grinder).

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTe ... rvana.html

http://www.hudsontoolsteel.com/assets/5 ... -image.jpg

http://www.cwsonline.com.au/shop/item/t ... -7-grinder

Stewie;

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Hi Stewie

In the article on grinding D2 (via the link to my website you posted) you will note that this was done on an 8" half-speed grinder with a 3X Norton 46 grit wheel .... not the Tormek. I like the Tormek, and have used one for several years, however it is not efficiently placed for D2-type steels.

The Tormek likely could grind such abrasion-resistant steel, but it would do so very slowly. The Tormek is not designed for fast grinding; it is designed for safe grinding.

A much better and more appropriate set up for grinding blades from scratch would be a 80 grit CBN wheel on a 8" dry grinder. For refreshing hollows, a 180 grit would be preferred. That is my set up at present. These wheels run very cool and grind very fast. Plus they never wear and require facing. The finish off the 180 grit is comparable to the finish off a 220 grit Tormek wheel.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTe ... SetUp.html

While cost is not in the equation here, two CBN wheels plus new half-speed grinder from CWS would still be cheaper than a T7 Tormek.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[swagman]

Thanks Derek. Appreciate your advise on this subject.

regards Stewie;

 

[bugbear]

That the top surface of the honing stone needs to be reasonably flat to use a honing guide efficiently I thought was a bit of a gimme.

If the stone is only hollowed end to end, the little side clamping jigs will quite happily continue to hold the blade in a fixed relation with the surface of the stone.

It's just a concave analogue of the behaviour of a key seat rule on a convex surface (diagram exaggerated a bit for clarity

However, when you come to remove the burr from the back of your now-sharpened blade on such a stone, you've no flat surface to use.

If (further) the stone is hollowed side-to-side, it will create a camber on your edge at least as deep as the hollow in the stone. You may or may not) want this camber.

BugBear