Freehand Sharpening - which technique?

[Jacob]

Armchair sharpening!
In reality, with a typical hollow stone, there will be a bit of it flat enough to remove the burr.
A stone where this would not be possible would be extremely untypical.
And you are wrong about the camber - it'd be perfectly possible to run the edge across and off the stone, just hitting the high spots.
It's these sorts of hypothetical guesses which prolong these threads.
If you actually get down to doing it many problems simply disappear, or you work around them.

 

[essexalan]

While I do normally hand sharpen I still make sure the stones are flat. At present making some end grain chopping boards for friends and family so lot of sharpening needed and a LV BU Jack my weapon of choice. I do use a jig to sharpen these blades and I can't imagine a situation where I could round over a bevel using a jig and a flat stone. A stone that is not flat is pretty obvious by sight and feel, quick rub on a diamond stone no problem. A touch up on a loaded strop keeps my visits to the stones down to a minimum. I like my bevels flat!

 

[G S Haydon]

Another question for Derek!

Derek, I don't know anything about CBN, what kind of lifespan is expected? I'd assume in a small workshop it's potentially last a VERY long time.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Graham, CBN has been around a long time. I first heard of it about 18 months ago, but turners have been using these wheels for 20 years. Its longevity is well established. I know some that are still going strong after 10 years.

Since I do not do much turning outside spindles and handles (which are part of building furniture), CBN came as something of a revelation to me. It was astounding that it had not made the journey from turners to flat woodworkers. I could not believe that others, like myself, had not heard of it. This became apparent when I wrote about my "new" grinding system and reported my experiences with CBN wheels in February 2015.

Since then quite a number have adopted CBN wheels in their grinders. David (DW) purchased a wheel as well, and he has now had a fair time with it. We have very similar experiences and the same high praise for these wheels.

I use the 180 grit wheel 90% of the time, and I have not noticed any wear/reduction in it efficiency. What this basically means is that the wheel never requires any dressing or readjustments. The grinding is cool - barely warm to touch, and the finish is quite smooth (see my pictures in my article, linked above). This means that you can safely grind very close to the end of the blade without fear of overheating it, unlike a white or grey wheel.

David is apt to look at the cost factor, and these wheels are not cheap (about $200 each). However, their longevity makes them cost-effective, especially when they get used frequently.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[bridger]

Well done, n0legs, well done...

Well as some of you may remember on another sharpening thread I posted how it's done in the land of n0legs, I have an update for you.

Another member contacted me, in utmost secreacy, telling me that has grandfather had a 27 cut file. Now this is truly something to behold. 25 cuts finer than a 2nd cut, you must be joking. Anyway said member assured me it was mine for the taking, only problem it was in Chile!
His grandfather had loaned it to the great Chilean sharpening master Vicente Riquelme quite some time ago, but was sure he still had it.
Well what's a guy to do?
I'll tell you what a guys to do, get on a plane pretty damn quick and haul *** to Chile. Couldn't miss the chance of a 27 cut file, no way.
Anyways I checked the calendar and decided with the daughters wedding coming up that that would be a good time to go. Don't worry I wasn't going to miss the wedding, it's just the time the good woman takes to get ready I would have at least three days where she wouldn't notice me AWOL.
Booked it, packed it and f***** off.
Arrival.
Well didn't I feel the right pratt. There's me in hawiian shirt, cargo shorts and hiking boots only to find Chile is more urbanised than Birmingham and London combined. There's no forests or jungle, rivers and streams it looks like the headquarters of RMC (now Cemex). Concrete plazas, eight lane highway everywhere, tower blocks of glass and steel. Not a favela or bodega in site, Wimpy homes everywhere, nice ones too.

So realising my faux pas it was straight into the nearest outfitters for a suit. Cracking three piece double breasted I bought, in charcoal. Silk shirt, black and an ever so gorgeous pink bow tie. Looking the part, yes sir!
Suited and booted I was ready for action. Called a cab gave the driver this Vicentes last known address and off we go.
Funny really how things turn out, he was just round the corner, I mean literaly just round the corner. I parked my *** in the cab and was getting out 30 seconds later. How hum thinks I.

With a tentative knock on the door I was met by a rather attractive young woman. I won't be saying anymore than that, I've been married and divorced I know the costs. This young lady asks me in and indicates for me to follow her to the rear of the house, the language barrier was a problem. There's me in Wenglish and her in Dutch, it was a right old laugh I can tell you.
We sat at a table where she offered me some fresh coffee and a Bourbon biscuit. In my best Dutch, interspersed with Cantonese and Esperanto, I explained the reason for my visit. No, no, no way was her response. Now not being some kind of dummy I drew out my Sig and duly explained this was my prefered method of negotiation. Hell, it's worked for the past 20 years with the kids and the good woman, please don't think I'm some kind of brute I use the paintball gun with the 2 year old granddaughter.
The drawing of the gun changed things somewhat. She explained she was the youngest of Vicente's 28 daughters ( get a telly fella, jeezz!) and at 19 (36,22,32) was very protective of her father and wasn't going to give up the file easily. The story went on for ages and not being one for a yarn or fairytale, I laid down the law. I want the file. No!
Right, great!
Stalemate.
Well so it seemed. But you know when that moment arrives when the stars are all aligned, the old deck was stacked in your favour? Well this was my moment.
Behold, in walks the great man himself. I could hardly believe it, there in front of me was the great Vicente Riquelme carrier bag in hand.
It seemed he had just popped out to the Spar for some bacon and eggs, he had a guest arriving later and was wanting to offer him the national dish of a fried egg and bacon sandwich on specially imported Hovis wholegrain bread. I wouldn't have minded one myself to be honest, but the nerves had gotten at my stomach and doubted I would be able to finish one.
He asked me what it was I wanted so I went into the story of my quest, to achieve the sharpest edge attainable.
The great man sat in thought, he shifted in his seat a few times. Mumbled something to himself a few times until he decided, no problem "you can have the file" he says. Like manna from heaven, in my ears I could hear Leonard Cohen "Hallelujah, hallelujah". I had made it, all this way and I would be leaving with my elusive quarry.
I could have kissed him, and I don't mean not one of those peck on the cheek granny kisses either, full on tongue action is the way I roll.

Still in a state of shock he instructs me to follow him, we pass through a door into the kitchen then into the understairs cupboard. With a quick flash of the hand a secret button was pressed and the wall rolled back, exposing a stairway going down. Again instructed to follow him we descended the stairs.
Okay time to go off on a tangent. You know in the movie "Angels and Demons", the Papal Vaults scenes with all the books? Well this is where Ron Howard got the idea. Bulletproof glass, atmospheric control, automatic doors, chamber music, vending machine and a rest room. It makes my sharpening chamber at home look decidedly mickey mouse.
It's all there guys, everything.
Oil stones, water stones, milk stones and kidney stones. Scary sharp and not so scary sharp. Hand cranked wheels, belt driven wheels, wind and water powered. There's the new Tormek3i, (everyone knows the injected version will be faster than the carbureted) and the Sorby ProEdge Pro Pro (coming to our shores in the autumn).
Even The Edge was there. Ever wondered how Bono keeps the Edge so sharp, well here's the answer. Obvious really.
Mind you at first I couldn't understand a bloody word he said, just a mixture of thick Irish Gaelic until Vicente threw him a microphone and a six string axe. Cleared him up a treat.

Anyway, the old guy shuffles over to his bench for the file. You should have seen this place, wow! wee!. This guy can get an edge on anything and I mean anything. Ever seen a sharpened sweeping brush? I doubt you have. Why sweep when you can shave, right? Incredible, absoulutely amazing. There's some stuff I can't mention, sworn to secrecy you see, but wow truly wow.
He hands me the file with the kind of reverence one would hand over a new born. This guy lives for sharpening, he has no other reason to exist. I'm sure there was a tear in his eye but he gave me the file anyway.
This thing is fine, not fine in a cute girl with a hot writhing body covered in sweat sort of way, it's like a bar of steel with a handle. I know I can make this work for me, I just know it. Look out chisels, knives and plane irons, you are going to the next level.

With my booty in hand it's time to make my farewells and leave. I thank Vicente and say goodbye to The Edge. I wish he'd kept the mic, I have no idea what he said, but I nodded wished him the best and made my way up the stairs I promised Vicente and his daughter I would one day return and made for the door.
Not wishing to make the same mistake twice I didn't call a cab, I decided to walk back to the airport. It gave me time to reflect on my day and relish in the knowledge I could go further with my sharpening than ever before. I'm pretty sure Jacob and BB are aware of Vicente and have been keeping him and his knowledge from us mere mortals for our own good. I will never forget meeting the great man and what he has given me.

The flight back was okay, slight hiccup though as I had to land at Bristol. No worries there though really, as I do enjoy looking at the old place as I pass through. Travelling down the Portway always gives me the chance to marvel at Brunels suspension bridge. I wonder what would have Brunel used for sharpening? Who knows?
At the bridge I showed my credentials and entered the motherland, home. This taffy boy loves the travel but damn it's good to be home. The good woman hadn't even noticed I'd gone, she did comment on my new suit but said she wasn't keen on my bow tie. What the hell does she know!

As for the file, well to be honest dear reader I haven't used it yet. With comments such as the good woman's I should use it on my tongue and give her what for, but that's for another time. So far I have successfuly bluntened three chisels and one plane iron, seems daft really considering the effort I put in to get them sharp in the first place, but such is the need for a trial of the file.
I will report back my findings in due course, don't worry my friends we've come too far to turn back now.
Signing out for now, n0legs.

 

[G S Haydon]

Thanks Derek, useful stuff. Not knowing anything about it your experience is very helpful!

 

[D_W]

Derek is right about me and cost factor. I wish I was so disciplined all the time, but having brown wheels that worked fine and a pink wheel that worked *GREAT* but didn't have much durability, i wasn't looking to spend too many curiosity dollars, and found a wheel with a rounded lip for $125.

At that, it will most likely outlast 3 pink wheels for $40 each by a wide margin, and without changing in radius. it's definitely faster cutting, and cooler, of course, but I never minded the cheapest $6 gray wheel as long as they're dressed (they just usually have horrible balance).

I only have the 80 grit wheel, and it is definitely a little slower than it was new, but that's probably typical of any electroplate item. I don't notice any areas of wear on it.

I saw some literature prescribing them for grinding of items 50 rc and above, so I'm not sure if laminated tools or grinding unhardened steel may be a threat to pull particles off. My brown wheel grinds unhardened stuff faster, anyway, despite being slower on hardened stuff.

Biggest threat to the durability of the CBN wheel might be something like a tool catch since the wheel is aluminum. I don't sharpen turning tools on it, so I don't expect to have that happen. Derek would have to tell you how long we've had them, I got mine almost right after he got his after measuring that i'd lost half an inch off of a pink wheel in a fairly short period of time.

 

[G S Haydon]

Ahh, any ally wheel. Makes sense, I had assumed it would be steel, though on reflection that would've been pretty crazy. Not sure I'll put one on the hand crank grinder though

 

[D_W]

Ahh, any ally wheel. Makes sense, I had assumed it would be steel, though on reflection that would've been pretty crazy. Not sure I'll put one on the hand crank grinder though

It would take a little while to wind one up on a hand crank grinder, they're very heavy compared to regular abrasive wheels despite being aluminum.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

The CBN wheels come in either steel or aluminium. The steel wheels, being heavier, create a good deal of momentum. The wheels are balanced at the factory, and they spin effortlessly. I timed my grinder to take 8 minutes to come to a rest after switch off.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Woodmatt]

I like Frank Kluasz's box (opps jig) for holding the waterstones.

 

[Corneel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMHDT0NZ_U8

I don't understand half of it, but it seems he's got the basics right. Doesn't look very difficult either.

 

[Jacob]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMHDT0NZ_U8

I don't understand half of it, but it seems he's got the basics right. Doesn't look very difficult either.

Couldn't hear what he was saying. But it really is that simple.
It always was that simple until the new sharpeners came along to persuade everybody it's difficult (and to sell you stuff)

PS not impressed by F Krausz. What a fuss pot - all that unnecessary and expensive kit! Is he trying to sell stuff too or is he just another innocent victim?
You can guess he doesn't what he's doing from the length of the video - 10 minutes +. Whats he going to do for ten minutes? Answer - oeuf about with a really stupid jig and too much kit.

 

[D_W]

Yeah, too expensive.

Washita itself makes shavings a half thousandth thick. Not much else is really needed.

Fiddling with that jig looked really cumbersome, BUT, he may have beginners that he teaches that are just screaming for a jig all the time.

I have seen his chisels in an old video about dovetailing drawers, and they looked to be sharpen on oilstones and with a slightly rounded bevel.

 

[bugbear]

Yeah, too expensive.

First half is just a sequence of 3 grits, with a combination of "flat bevel" and "sideways sharpening". Pretty basic stuff IMHO (although he wants to to vote twice, same as Derek )

Still, what does Frank Klausz know - was he properly trained by a master in the old days, has he made lots of fine furniture?

BugBear

 

[D_W]

Yeah, too expensive.

Still, what does Frank Klausz know - was he properly trained by a master in the old days, has he made lots of fine furniture?

BugBear

I was talking about the jig and those bizarre crowned half-width planes at the end. The waterstone setup is pretty standard.

Awful setups like that jig setup (that still requires finishing the edge off of the jig) are far worse of a problem than the disease of too-little-practiced freehand sharpening.

I tracked the thing down, and it's developed by a guy who had 28 years of experience at DMT, but I didn't find one for sale.

The crowning plates (full width) are horribly expensive, and are again something with narrow focus that replaces a pretty easily-learned skill.

 

[MIGNAL]

That kids a genius. Celeb woodworker in the making.
As for the Klausz jg, ridiculous. He obviously doesn't use it himself because he states that your own hands are the perfect jig.

 

[D_W]

That kids a genius. Celeb woodworker in the making.
As for the Klausz jg, ridiculous. He obviously doesn't use it himself because he states that your own hands are the perfect jig.

It's so strange to see the promotion of it, I don't even know if you could buy it, but it looks so impractical and subjects you to buying a bunch of single purpose diamond stones that would have a limited lifetime.

It's not strange to see someone promoting such a thing ,but strange to see frank klausz promting such a thing when he sharpens fine freehand.

 

[swagman]

To understand the depth of Klausz's convictions, you need to know about his background. Thirty years ago in Hungary, at the age of 14, Frank began his woodworking career in an apprenticeship system that had remained essentially unchanged since the Middle Ages. What was unusual about it, even by European standards, was that Klausz entered into a formal, contractual apprenticeship with his own father. "I paid the highest price for my trade," Klausz explains. "Once I apprenticed, I didn't have a father, I had a master." And a stern master at that. Of the half dozen workers in his father's cabinet shop, it was Frank who was taken to task if something wasn't quite right. Perhaps wary of his own son's competition, the elder Klausz withheld certain construction tips until the very end of Frank's apprenticeship. Watching his father work, Frank asked, "How can you do that so fast?" His father replied, "After ten or fifteen years you're going to be a pretty good beginner yourself." http://www.frankklausz.com/homepage.html

 

[Jacob]

.....
I have seen his chisels in an old video about dovetailing drawers, and they looked to be sharpen on oilstones and with a slightly rounded bevel.

Not surprised, especially as he is a competent craftsman by all accounts!
It happens a lot - some highly competent woodworker is asked to demo something, for a video or a book, and instead of showing his own sloppy but quick and easy method he drags out what he imagines is a more "correct" method. Do as I say, not as I do.
In this way a lot of possibly useless info about the craft is generated and repeated forever - becoming gospel