Electric vehicles

[Dabop]

Beware statistics. There is a distinct hockey stick curve on mileage by vehicles with more than half driving less than the average and a smaller number driving many multiples of the average.

That is known and accounted for by the ABS (which has comprehensive breakdowns of all their data.... ALL of it- it can take hours to wade through it all looking for all the details)

But that same curve you are taking about also means that many don't 'need' to charge daily- or even weekly... if more than half are driving short distances only, they can get by with using a fast charger at the supermarket once a week or so while doing the shopping...

So the 'not everyone can have a charger at home' issue becomes less of an issue...

 

[Dabop]

We used to just take the plunger out of the solenoid if it failed. Just start the car as normal but you have to stall it to stop it. Lots of LR TDI engines running like that in various parts of Africa...........

LOL- I drove my old Dyna 2 tonne truck like that for YEARS here- the cutoff solenoid failed- so I just disconnected it and stalled it every time I wanted to turn it off...

 

[Vulcan]

The unacceptable (for some) truth is that if Electric Cars entirely replace ICE vehicles then at some point no one will need to worry about charging. Hailing a cybercab on your phone will be very much cheaper per mile than owning a vehicle and a hell of a lot less hassle. This scenario was predicted some time back and has many advantages for society as a whole. Obviously if you actually like driving you’ll be apoplectic at the thought!

https://www.warpnews.org/premium-co...an-anyone-else-so-listen-to-what-he-says-now/

 

[wizkid2003]

Kia EV9?

As an addendum to my previous post at the top of this page, the thing that held me back from getting a second EV as our 'big' car was the fact that we have 2 teenage boys (I'm 6'3 and they're catching up fast), and we go on family camping holidays every year. My outgoing car is a Q5, and we also had to take a 540l roof box to get all the gear in. It was also short on legroom in the back as the boys have grown. The EV9 has pretty much the same footprint as a Q7, and it's absolutely cavernous inside (over 820l boot with the 3rd row folded down). The back row is also usable by actual humans if needed. The max range version has a real world range over 300 miles so you could get from Lincoln to Newcastle and back with only a 10 minute top-up charge.

If that's too expensive (I got mine nearly new which lopped more than 10k off the price), there's also the new Peugeot E-5008 long range. With the 3rd row down it has a 750l boot which is bigger than a Superb estate. No real world range data yet as the long range battery version is still on order, but with WLTP of 415 miles, you'd probably get 350.

EDIT: I will add, one big downside with the EV9 is that while it's basically the same size as a Q7, and narrower than most other large SUVs like a RR Sport, X5, etc, it's slab-like design makes it look absolutely humungous. Most car design uses all the tricks in the book to soften corners, draw the eye with crease lines, etc, but the EV9 is a box and as such it doesn't hide its size at all. Just looking at the Kia you would think it's considerably bigger than a full fat Range Rover. I realise this is going to be a big issue for a lot of people.

While the EV9 might be an ideal all-rounder ev car wise...here in Ireland that car retails at between 80-87k! Now just for clarification....all vehicles here are over-priced,so not a dig at ev's... just pointing out that realistically that's beyond the realm of Joe Bloggs.

 

[Dabop]

The unacceptable (for some) truth is that if Electric Cars entirely replace ICE vehicles then at some point no one will need to worry about charging. Hailing a cybercab on your phone will be very much cheaper per mile than owning a vehicle and a hell of a lot less hassle. This scenario was predicted some time back and has many advantages for society as a whole. Obviously if you actually like driving you’ll be apoplectic at the thought!

https://www.warpnews.org/premium-co...an-anyone-else-so-listen-to-what-he-says-now/

Quite a few people living in the 'big smoke' indeed already are at that point (except for the cybercabs bit lol)- with decent public transport and 'supermarket home delivery' here, many have already 'dumped the car' entirely...

(my sister managed to go for quite a while with only having one car- a classic XC Falcon GS (351/5.8l v8 petrol motor, fuel measured in gallons per mile rather than miles per gallon lol- her 'weekend warrior' meant for play only... and rarely driven at all)

She had a 3 minute walk to the train station, which took her to less than two blocks from her work...

Driving a car meant $25 a day in parking fees, a fuel bill of about a hundred a week plus a new car to pay off, rego and insurance of over a grand a year- financially it didn't make sense to even own a car at all (but she wasn't going to get rid of her baby lol) so she did fine without one at all- being in the city meant it simply wasn't needed, and this is something that is fairly common in those lucky enough to live where public transport is good...
(a yearly train pass was less than a weeks worth of parking fees alone!!!)

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Unless you can use Tesla chargers at 43p or thereabouts.

At 43p a KWH the cost is close to ICE.

The typical rapid charger cost at a motorway services is (apparently) 74p KWH. For those with home charging facilities this is the most likely scenario on a long journey - fast charging is better.

I don't doubt the possible running cost benefits for some in EV vs ICE - but selective rose tinted spectacles don't help.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Oh sorry, I was following your example

View attachment 189016

Nah, cant be bothered, just the fact that the majority of homes in the UK have enough space for off street charging is good enough. I can park 10 cars on my drive and can charge 2 at the same time so the stats would be even more favourable if this was counted.

UK housing stock is analysed - flats 21%, terraced 25%, semi 31%, detached 23%.

A working assumption that semi and detached properties probably have the ability to charge off road, and that flats and terraced do not gives off road charging a small balance of 54:46.

Some flats and terraced may have communal parking where chargers could be installed and manged - equally some semis (in particular) may have no off road capability.

Conclusion - it is mathematically correct to assert that most properties could charge off-road. One may equally assert that nearly half cannot charge of road. To use the first statement in support of the conclusion there is no problem is inconsiderate complacency.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

I never said it would. The point I made is that the majority of homes in the UK do have access to off street parking as per all the reports I have seen. Woodieallen doubted what I said and has gone on to show that the numbers involved as in total number of houses isnt accurate in one of the surveys detailed. I have suggested that even if that is the case, the proportions is highly likely to be the same unless of course the survey deliberately missed out homes in one category only which i doubt would be the case. My comment about my circumstances was purely made to illustrate that there are other options too i.e. I can park and charge two cars at the same time which isnt taken into account by any surveys with regards to cars that can be charged at home 'v' total number of EV's.

I totally accept there's a significant number of people who cant charge at home, its just that in balance there's a greater number who can.

Statistical garbage - you must be a politician

 

[Dabop]

While the EV9 might be an ideal all-rounder ev car wise...here in Ireland that car retails at between 80-87k! Now just for clarification....all vehicles here are over-priced,so not a dig at ev's... just pointing out that realistically that's beyond the realm of Joe Bloggs.

The line-up currently starts at $97,000 for the EV9 AIR and ranges through to $121,000 for the range-topping EV9 GT Line.

That's the Australian prices, and basically starts at TWICE the price of the Atto3 with the long range battery I am looking at...

For that much money- I'd expect it to be well into the 'luxury' class, not an 'allrounder'...

The MG4 was cheaper, but it doesn't have a towbar available- which is a must for me...
(owning a trailer hire company, and not having a towbar is ... um... not a good idea lol!!!)

The standard range MG4 starts only about $37k- being in an extremely rural part of Australia, with the next town an hours drive from mine- well the long range option is obviously a must no matter what I choose...

 

[paulrbarnard]

Exactly my point. The people doing many multiples of the average probably aren’t EV candidates anyway

 

[paulrbarnard]

Quite a few people living in the 'big smoke' indeed already are at that point (except for the cybercabs bit lol)- with decent public transport and 'supermarket home delivery' here, many have already 'dumped the car' entirely...

(my sister managed to go for quite a while with only having one car- a classic XC Falcon GS (351/5.8l v8 petrol motor, fuel measured in gallons per mile rather than miles per gallon lol- her 'weekend warrior' meant for play only... and rarely driven at all)

She had a 3 minute walk to the train station, which took her to less than two blocks from her work...

Driving a car meant $25 a day in parking fees, a fuel bill of about a hundred a week plus a new car to pay off, rego and insurance of over a grand a year- financially it didn't make sense to even own a car at all (but she wasn't going to get rid of her baby lol) so she did fine without one at all- being in the city meant it simply wasn't needed, and this is something that is fairly common in those lucky enough to live where public transport is good...
(a yearly train pass was less than a weeks worth of parking fees alone!!!)

One of my daughter lives in Sydney. No car and no need for one. When one of them lived in London the same thing.

 

[johnb80]

At 43p a KWH the cost is close to ICE.

I dont agree.

ICE - say a diesel at 45mpg and £6.72 per gallon gives you 14.93p / mile

EV - 4 miles / kWh would give you 10.75p / mile

28% less.

The typical rapid charger cost at a motorway services is (apparently) 74p KWH.

Unless you can use a Tesla charger (many of them are now open to all makes), then you get the 43p and sometimes less.

For those with home charging facilities this is the most likely scenario on a long journey - fast charging is better.

Many people are unaware about the Tesla chargers as can be seen in locations where they are open to all, people still use the other providers paying almost double most of the time.

I don't doubt the possible running cost benefits for some in EV vs ICE - but selective rose tinted spectacles don't help.

There's no rose tinted specs here, just experience. 2017 we changed from a Ford Galaxy Diesel to a Mitsubishi Outl;ander PHEV (Plug In Hybrid) and my 4.4 TDV8 Range Rover was changed to a BMWi3. The Range Rover got through £120 per week in fuel and with the exact same duty the i3 used less than £120 in a whole year, extreme ends of the pollution table I agree but this is real world use and figures. The Outlander PHEV was changed 12 months ago for an MG5 estate. This has averaged 4.8 miles/kWh over the last 12 months. We do charge at home and the 5800 miles we have done has cost £84.58 which is 1.4p / mile. If we had only used rapid chargers at 80p that would have been £1104 which is 19p per mile, expensive compared to ICE.
If you further consider say a long journey in the MG5, 400 miles for example, the first 220 miles would be done on the charge from home (currently 5p kWh) and then the 180 miles remaining from a Rapid Charger (80p kWh etc). The fuel cost for that journey £32.30 which equates to a reasonable 8p per mile.

 

[Dabop]

One of my daughter lives in Sydney. No car and no need for one. When one of them lived in London the same thing.

Lived there for many years, before moving north... these days I'm a 'canetoader' lol with 40 acres of Aussie bush on my land...

I will never move to the big smoke again lol- my nearest neighbour is almost a kilometre away, and after living in a caravan in various towns working in the mines foe 15 years, thats the way I like it!!!

Mind you, I am STILL currently living in the same caravan inside the shed while building my house- but at least there isn't another person sleeping 10ft away in another caravan either side!!!

the 'White Whale' my home for most of the last 15 years...

 

[Terrytpot]

This threads constant to and fro of “there are lots of houses that can charge off road” to “there are lots of dwellings that can’t charge off road” is all getting rather tedious.
It strikes me that the ratio will inevitably increase for the former as that type of property seems to be the prevalent type being constructed these days. Whether it’s Barratts , persimmon , Wimpey , Redrow or any other builders the sites they construct tend to follow a standard ethos of seeing what local residents are asking for more of and then going ahead and building a handful of “affordable properties”, or as anyone else would call them 1 or 2 bed properties, a majority of 3 or 4 bed homes followed by a sprinkling of larger buildings. These days finding any of them without off street parking would probably be a challenge unless you were in the heart of a major urban city which isn’t where these sort of sites are usually constructed.
If you also take into account that from 2023 ALL new build properties are required by law to have EV charging facilities and from next year it is likely that solar panels will also be compulsory it’s pretty obvious that more and more people will have access to the infrastructure they need to support switching to electric vehicles and that the ratio is only going to increase as time goes by.

 

[Vulcan]

When it comes to flats, those that choose to live in expensive ones often have their own underground parking, which will, I’m sure, increasingly have charging facilities. From what I’ve read, those that live in social housing high rises often don’t even drive or can’t afford a car anyway. I concede though, it’s a good anti EV point of view if you want to make it,

 

[Blackswanwood]

Most EV users in such places drive fairly short distances- so much so that a single 1/2- 3/4 hour charge would cover their entire weekly needs (do it while shopping,which is why many supermarkets now have multiple fast chargers at them) so they really don't need access to a home charger...

And the number of people that 'absolutely can't charge an EV' someway, somehow, is so small its IS negligible... and the gains of owning one mean that the number of people that 'CAN'T' use an EV at all is TINY....

Hell, I' buying one later this year myself- and I don't even have the grid on here at all!!! (offgrid solar) and it still works out cheaper and better for me lol

You’ll have to excuse me being sceptical that a random Aussie bloke living in the outback has a detailed understanding of the UK housing stock and the travel needs of the UK population.

Obviously anyone can charge an EV but that doesn’t make it the best choice for many when compared to an ICE car at the moment. That’s not an anti-EV position - it’s the reality. As Terrytpot has pointed out (and I said earlier) this will change over time.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

It seems the case that:

• older flats and terraced properties predating the growth of car ownership had limited provision for car parking
• until recently local authorities in granting planning permission for new builds were inclined to limit car parking requirements in the (rather naïve) hope it would deter car ownership, congestion and favour public and green transport alternatives
• as far as I am aware there is no requirement for new builds (particularly small) to be equipped with off road EV charging facilities (a major deficiency).
• For larger 3 or 4 bed properties developers increasingly see provision of recharging facilities a selling point
• whilst some high end apartments and terraced may have recharging and parking facilities, most are built with cost a material constraint. In urban areas, alternative transport (bus, bike etc) usually exist, and the occupants of such properties will typically be lower income
• Developers would rather have higher density construction rather than "waste" space on car parking and access roads. Perhaps why the regulatory framework is so lacking at present.

Property currently being planned/built should embed best possible standards. This applies to insulation, PV panels, heating systems (heat pumps) etc as well as EV recharging. Building sub-optimal properties with a 50-100+ year life is short sighted (at best).

Fortunately inadequate recharging facilities may be a short term problem. Autonomous vehicles, summoned via an app, and recharged centrally will increasingly become commonplace. Private EV ownership will decline. Many properties will need no parking spaces!

 

[Dabop]

You’ll have to excuse me being sceptical that a random Aussie bloke living in the outback has a detailed understanding of the UK housing stock and the travel needs of the UK population.

Obviously anyone can charge an EV but that doesn’t make it the best choice for many when compared to an ICE car at the moment. That’s not an anti-EV position - it’s the reality. As Terrytpot has pointed out (and I said earlier) this will change over time.

You assuming much (especially that an Aussie might not be from the UK originally in the first place, or not still have family and relatives living there...)

 

[woodieallen]

Thats just it, I dont, there are many reports out there that reach similar conclusions. There are people like yourself the seem hell bent on discrediting anything thats out there. Ok so there is a difference in the report in total number of properties, it's still highly likely that the proportions in the non included housing stock will be the same. So rather than the epic fail you seem to wish to believe, it's not it's a decent representation of the situation. Even if the missing number were all housing stock with no off road parking, my statement of the majority do have offroad parking would still be true.
I'm sure other members of this thread will be pretty fed up of our stalemate on this point and I will therefore not take up anything further from you about the validity of the reports I cited, there are many more out there freely available with a quick google search.

J

I am not 'hell bent' on discrediting anything that's out there. Unlike you who appears to take anything at face value when it confirms your own prejudices, I prefer to look at the facts and figures and their accuracy and then take a view. I love your phrase 'highly likely'. In your opinion.

The best researched report that I have found is the one done by Field Dynamics and featured in the RAC report. The other reports, like that .gov one, I have seen simply take a tiny sample and then multiply it up with a bit of statistic fiddling.

The FD report assesses every building in England by using the OS MasterMap Topography layer

Incidentally, anyone can dip into it by using the Magic.Defra website which is a brilliant research tool.

They took the average sized car, added room to open doors etc and came up with a requirement for a parking space of 3.8m x 5.4m. Their algorithms then scanned that OS data looking for properties with that size or more. Each property was then cross-referenced with anothee OS dataset - AddressBase which matches 29 million Royal Mail postal address to unique property reference numbers (UPRN). Somehow - it's not clear - they then excluded factories, public buildings etc and that then resulted in them working out how many 'potential ' parking spaces there were.

Blue would be space for one vehicle. Pink for two. Further cross-referencing produced this interactive chart by local authority.

https://onstreetcharging.acceleratedinsightplatform.com/

And they arrived at a figure of 65%. Only it will be lower than because in that photo of the house I posted above, clearly that plot has no potential. There will be other reasons why a potential space can't be used...bus stops, street lighting etc ...and his is acknowledged in the RAC report,

So all we can say is that it will be less than 65% but by how much, no-one knows.

But one thing is for certain and that it is not 'most' properties have the potential for off-street parking.

As you say, this aspect of the topic has run its course.

 

[woodieallen]

The unacceptable (for some) truth is that if Electric Cars entirely replace ICE vehicles then at some point no one will need to worry about charging. Hailing a cybercab on your phone will be very much cheaper per mile than owning a vehicle and a hell of a lot less hassle. This scenario was predicted some time back and has many advantages for society as a whole. Obviously if you actually like driving you’ll be apoplectic at the thought!

https://www.warpnews.org/premium-co...an-anyone-else-so-listen-to-what-he-says-now/

I'll be long dead by then