Electric vehicles

[Trainee neophyte]

You know what lowers emissions? Poverty. It may not make for clean water, but it sure does lower personal consumption

Precisely why I mentioned the World Economic Forum (you may know them as the nice billionaire's club who get together at Davos and plan how the proles should be controlled). If you are of a cynical turn of mind, they seem to be selling the benefits of making the world population much, much poorer. Do we think your average billionaire will include himself in this reduction in status/power/wealth?

I'm all for buying locally as a choice; not so much if it is an enforced, top-down planned economic necessity. Having your freedom to travel restricted by government decree or enforced technology ban is something to ponder on, as will be your ability to buy food or anything else that currently arrives by diesel powered truck. If we really have hit peak oil (ie we have extracted all the cheap oil, and the only oil left uses too much energy to extract to make it economically viable to use), then market forces will make the change to other energy sources as necessary. If not, then central planning will do what central planning always does - rob the majority for the benefit of a select few.

It all comes down to available net energy - how much you have left after extracting and transporting your energy to the point of use. Electric cars cars are great, but how did you generate the electricity, what were the losses, and what is the overall net energy profit? Solar panels seem to use roughly as much energy to create as they produce in their lifetime, and windmills aren't much better. Liquid fossil fuels are truly astonishing in their energy content, because you have millions of years of sunshine, followed by more millions of years of gravity, heat and pressure from the planet, all available at pump number 4 at your local Tescos, with a Mars Bar for snackage if you want one. Very hard to compete with fossil fuel in energy terms, and the switch away from them will make everyone poorer. No one seems to want to address this.

Should you want to get your teeth into the calculations: ERoEI for Beginners

 

[clogs]

hear, ....hear...... aptly put Mr Neophyte

 

[alex_heney]

That's impressive but not indicative of EV's at large and of course you have something that not everyone has, a driveway.

It is 100% indicative of EV's at large in the medium to long term.

It will be absolutely the norm for new Evs being sold by the time new ICEs are banned.

 

[billw]

I suppose one effect of weaning cars off fossil fuels is that it means there's a longer window of supply that can go to aviation, since electric aircraft aren't arriving any time soon.

 

[Rorschach]

I suppose one effect of weaning cars off fossil fuels is that it means there's a longer window of supply that can go to aviation, since electric aircraft aren't arriving any time soon.

Except that the cost will go up massively since there won't be such a demand for the products of refining.

Not that we will be able to fly by then anyway, it will be deemed too dangerous too travel and there won't be any airlines left anyway.

 

[AJB Temple]

Hmmm. I think electric aircraft will appear much more widely before too long. This does not necessarily mean that fossil fuels will not be consumed on board to generate electrical power for the motors (there has been recent media coverage of this), but electric replacements for turbofans are being developed.

No 1 offspring is doing a masters in aerospace and aeronautical engineering at one of the hotspots for advanced tech (graphene development and so on) and electric aircraft propulsion systems are very much on the curriculum. Much quieter, more efficient, more reliable, cheaper to build, less catastrophic in failure.

 

[NikNak]

Has anyone out there got a BEV and solar panels and or a powerwall/powerbank/powervault..?

AJB i'd love to hear more about your experiences of running your EV. I'm looking to change and would lurrrvv a Tesla unfortunately my pockets aren't deep enough. I've test driven the Niro 4+ ev and omg what an experience..!!

 

[Droogs]

If you are looking for a practical and affordable normal car with a range that will cover most of what you do without recharge during the trip, then have a look below.

https://mg.co.uk/mg5-ev/?gclid=Cj0K...cDBeqze7ZUVBLrod91o5IOq0mpsrpimsaArxjEALw_wcB

 

[NikNak]

Droogs... i've read your previous input and was very impressed

 

[Tris]

I like the look of that MG, reading around it looks like something I could realistically replace our main car with for 95% of the time.

As an aside, has anyone towed with an EV and how has range been affected?

 

[ScaredyCat]

We shouldn't be too concerned, right about now we should be getting jetpacks, right?

 

[MorrisWoodman12]

It all comes down to available net energy - how much you have left after extracting and transporting your energy to the point of use. Electric cars cars are great, but how did you generate the electricity, what were the losses, and what is the overall net energy profit? Solar panels seem to use roughly as much energy to create as they produce in their lifetime, and windmills aren't much better. Liquid fossil fuels are truly astonishing in their energy content, because you have millions of years of sunshine, followed by more millions of years of gravity, heat and pressure from the planet, all available at pump number 4 at your local Tescos, with a Mars Bar for snackage if you want one. Very hard to compete with fossil fuel in energy terms, and the switch away from them will make everyone poorer. No one seems to want to address this.

Should you want to get your teeth into the calculations: ERoEI for Beginners

I haven't read all the pages of this thread, just from page 29, but only Mr Neophyte has touched on what seems to me to be the crux of the matter. Energy doesn't come for free. The raw material is either converted to a petrol/diesel liquid form and used in our vehicles locally or used to generate electricity centrally and distributed to the end user's vehicle. Either way it is still using our valuable resources. Yes, YES, I hear you shouting about solar and wind and wave energy but for the immediate future they are still a small percentage of our total energy needs. In the meantime we are arguing about whether EV is better than IC for the planet when we need to reduce our energy usage.

Just my two penny worth of opinion.
Martin

 

[Bodone]

We have Golf Ev and Diesel car. Other half does about 10k a year and all sub 80 mile round trips so the golf's range is ideal. I do 20k to 25k a year with a couple of 300 mile round trips a week, hence the oil burner.

ICE/BEV mix works for us and we're lucky to be able to have the choice. I did look for 300 mile range BEV's, but technology/cost not there yet. When it is and if we can afford it, we'll make the change.

So many lobbyists and think tanks and political bullshit around the whole EV subject. Especially when it comes to something as emotive as personal transport and it being positioned for decades as an example of personal freedom.

 

[Droogs]

@MorrisWoodman12 I honestly do think that no one would dispute the argument that we should use less resources and energy. It is how to do that as efficiently and as pollution free as possible that is in dispute. To me it boils down to a few simple basic arguments/responsibilities each generation has.
The first is: do we the current generation of planetary tenants have any sort of duty to pass on a planet that is livable on or indeed comfortabe and productive to live on to the following generations. Well that boils down to the big question - what is the purpose of life other than to beget life.
Are we morally responsible to the following generations as to how good a life they can live within their environment or can we do what we like regardless, once we know the effects of what we do and how we do it. Personally, I (due to circumstance) have no foot in the game at all. It matters not one jot to my genealogy if those to come survive or not and how they do so. For my genealogical line, I am the endling. But do I still have that moral duty to provide as good a life to those to come as those before did for me. Lets us face it our parents et al did what they did in the belief that it would provide us with a better future. Yes they have given us a material life unsurpassed in human history (as we know it) but their ignorance or for some greed has produced a situation where we are at the last dance of the ball . Are we going to sit on the sides and watch as it all fades away or will we stand up and try the last tango in Paris in the hope that the girl gives us a kiss and we pull a future together out of the bag. One that will be of benefit to those still to come.
So do we have a moral duty to take matters into our hands and forgo our selfishness for "our" children or can we just do what we want and to **** with everyone else?

The second is if we do take the steps needed how best to do this and are we prepared to sacrifice some of our comfort, ease and lets admit it our laziness for those that follow. It appears that through history the trend has been yes parents do this mostly going by past experience by taking up arms to defend what they believe and have or to defend those who can't defend themselves out of a compunction form moral duty. But we are living in a time where the self and its pleasures seem to be more important. Just take a look at the cowpats being thrown about what is needed for covid's defeat and impact prevention. If we as a species do this for the survival not of the planet (mother nature doesn't give a flying fig about our continuing existence) but for our own survival then the has to be a paradigm shift in our attitude about what is acceptable not about that which is merely convenient.
Thirdly we know the technology we have been using to power the industrial and following revolutions has basically knackered the planet with regard to our comfortable survival and are now collectively in Trump mode about admitting what we need to do and using the same tactics and arguments exercises that he does. We are on the verge of having the technology to help us but in order for it to work effectively now, we must make changes to our practices and thinking that we may be uncomfortable with for what ever reason, be it laziness, luditeness, ignorance or just plain stubborness. But change we must if our children are to have a future that is not some dystopian Orwellian nightmare.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Wind power in the UK has grown from 2.7% of total energy in 2010 to 21% in the past year - a growth of ~800%. To increase this by (say) 300% or more over the next 10 years is plausible - albeit with significant investment.

There are issues - energy storage when the wind fails to blow, finding acceptable sites etc - these are problems which need a solution; not a reason never to start the journey.

What is abundantly clear is that fossil fuels, the outcome of millions of years of geological process, are being consumed at a rate massively in excess of the rate at which they are being naturally replaced. They will become increasingly scarce and expensive - the only real unknown being timing.

There are overwhelming reasons for leading the transition to alternative energy sources - economy, jobs, environment, and in the medium term, energy cost. Failure to try will leave the UK trailing competitor countries, reliant on imported technology and knowledge about how best to generate and manage energy consumption.

 

[Droogs]

Engergy storage can be provided by the vehicles that are parked and plugged in all over the country in times of need and you will be paid by the grid to provide it. You do not need to have uber massive btty sites though they would help as well

 

[Droogs]

For a sensible intro to BEs watch this and go from there

 

[D_W]

Precisely why I mentioned the World Economic Forum (you may know them as the nice billionaire's club who get together at Davos and plan how the proles should be controlled). If you are of a cynical turn of mind, they seem to be selling the benefits of making the world population much, much poorer. Do we think your average billionaire will include himself in this reduction in status/power/wealth?

I'm all for buying locally as a choice; not so much if it is an enforced, top-down planned economic necessity. Having your freedom to travel restricted by government decree or enforced technology ban is something to ponder on, as will be your ability to buy food or anything else that currently arrives by diesel powered truck. If we really have hit peak oil (ie we have extracted all the cheap oil, and the only oil left uses too much energy to extract to make it economically viable to use), then market forces will make the change to other energy sources as necessary. If not, then central planning will do what central planning always does - rob the majority for the benefit of a select few.

It all comes down to available net energy - how much you have left after extracting and transporting your energy to the point of use. Electric cars cars are great, but how did you generate the electricity, what were the losses, and what is the overall net energy profit? Solar panels seem to use roughly as much energy to create as they produce in their lifetime, and windmills aren't much better. Liquid fossil fuels are truly astonishing in their energy content, because you have millions of years of sunshine, followed by more millions of years of gravity, heat and pressure from the planet, all available at pump number 4 at your local Tescos, with a Mars Bar for snackage if you want one. Very hard to compete with fossil fuel in energy terms, and the switch away from them will make everyone poorer. No one seems to want to address this.

Should you want to get your teeth into the calculations: ERoEI for Beginners

Natural gas and nuclear are common here. Makes for a good combination with battery powered cars (nat gas is local. This is a coal area, too, but the mines are closing because gas is cheaper and obviously better for the air).

As far as the global planner clubs - not a fan of those folks at all. Sounds like a club where they'd fly in private jets to the meeting and then chide people for setting the A/C down a degree. And then dance around things like unclean animal meat markets in China that generate respiratory viruses or "Spanish flus".

We don't have much solar here - the factor is poor, but the idea that panels take more to make than they generate sounds outdated. A 250 watt panel is now $200 at retail here. I doubt it costs more than $100 to make, which would include the energy, but even if you count the retail price and ignore margins (to cover transportation and delivery cost), those panels generate about $50 a year of electricity here at generation rates and double that at transmitted rates (we pay about the same amount for distribution as generation - and we're retail customers). I calculate that a 250kw panel here generates around 1.5 kw/hr a day throughout the year (about 1.5 times that south of here), which would be around $85-$100 a year in net distributed generation (again, half that for utility generation cost without distribution).

I see 250 watt cosmetic damage solar panels guaranteed to work for $39 shipped on ebay right now (I have a yard full of trees, though - otherwise, I'd think about installing solar here on my own and paying an electrician only for grid hook up).

 

[billw]

Aren’t Rolls Royce gearing up to make a load of nuclear reactors? Sure I heard that on the news. I’m sure they’re not intended for a new range of cars (yes I know cars isn’t part of RR any more).

 

[clogs]

generally I know we are waiting for the next jump in techno......Graphene/batteries etc.....

personally I'd love to have an EV to replace my aging VW T4, 1999......but a rlike for like replacemnt would cost around €60,000......no way mate....
the price is a premium because of "fashion"....for me it woud suit even with a 200 mile drive limit on charge...
Being in industry this vehicle should cost less than 1/2 still giving everyone a good living.....
so for now I'll keep my old'un.....it has been rebuilt mechanically and no rust to worry about.....
if fuel oil runs out she is old enough to run on chip fat (veggy oil, plenty of chip shops here).....

Living in a sunny climate I'd be happy to have elec solar panels on the roof but D_W here in Europe we get robbed by overpriced gear.....
it is NOT a free market here......and one person just can't import products for a good price.....
plus it's dificult to find info on what is the best product manufacturer....always scared of buying a Lemon.....I have tried....
be my luck to buy a set of panels then a week later the upgrade apears.....dohhhh.....
Not sure but even the Germans supposidly import panels from China.....?????

Now solar farms are useful but why oh why don't they make em so sheep and other animals can graze underneath the panels...
they just need longer legs (panels not the animals) and protection for cableing.....cant be hard....but the instalation has to be CHEAP.....
2 for the price of 1.....

Solar water heating I have and it works pretty well for over 300 days of the year.....average cost here is around €1500 for a mid range set up.....
300 ltr hot water tank....
the same unit will cost over €4,000 in France and I have no idea on cost in the UK (been abroad for a very long time).....
Surley a reasonable priced unit fitted to everyone's house where suitable would benefit everyone....
even being tax free would help, but those in power need their tax money to waste on other project....HS2 for one....
again nobody is thinking of the future....

Lastley I've seen these solar farms where the sunshine is directed at a tower producing a super heated salt solution for the prod of elec.........
anyone know how efficient they are....?
did hear that the oil producers were considering cableing up the planet and then sell that to us instead of oil....mmmmm......dont think so....
but Graphene etc could help make it poss.....
here in Crete elec is totally produce using OIL.....

I think lots of little things could help the planet if those in power were really interested.....back to greed again....