I have nothing against the principle (apart from the fact that EV are overall probably more polluting than ICE cars as things stand currently) but I am pessimistic about the implementation. Maybe (hopefully) I will be proved wrong, I'd be surprised though.
Electric vehicles
- Thread starter Woodchips2
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billw
The Tattooed One
China is indeed an emerging economy and as much as that seems very odd given its current status, apart from the very major cities (Beijing, Shanghai) much of the country is way behind. There are huge industrial zones such as Shenzhen and Guangzhou (probably the smoggiest place I’ve ever been in my life) but that doesn’t detract from China’s overall status.
billw
The Tattooed One
Sometimes I actually think you’re going to say that windmills cause cancer and your cover will be blown.
Yes, I didn't go into detail because I was typing on a phone. The areas you mention are enormously tech savvy and shenzhen was just mentioned last week as it's too expensive of an area for stanley to keep their tooling factory open (thus it closed).
But some of the rural and more industrial and less tech-related areas (where people are required to stay if they don't have papers to move elsewhere - something my parents ran into when they were in china - their guide was snatched due to confusion about her papers - she wasn't in violation of anything ultimately, but it led to a 5 hour stranding).
My point with china, though, is that if they continue to increase their standard of living, large parts of the country will consume more and more energy.
I have this discussion with people fairly often here. You know what lowers emissions? Poverty. It may not make for clean water, but it sure does lower personal consumption. That's usually met with "no, we need more wealth distribution so people can afford clean energy as wealthier people are greener".
Yes, 6000 square feet within 1 degree end to end 365 days a year, and four cars, but the fourth is a prius, and that's our definition of environmentally conscious. (and let's not forget flying. Take an international flight, and the round trip could be 100 to 400 gallons of fuel for a single passenger. Very green.
What nobody likes to discuss is that if emissions are a problem, the population size is a problem, not per capita usage. Quarter the population, double the consumption vs. double the population and decrease consumption by 50% - which does more?
And we all sit on our computers all the time, too, which has huge energy costs for everything we're connected to.
But some of the rural and more industrial and less tech-related areas (where people are required to stay if they don't have papers to move elsewhere - something my parents ran into when they were in china - their guide was snatched due to confusion about her papers - she wasn't in violation of anything ultimately, but it led to a 5 hour stranding).
My point with china, though, is that if they continue to increase their standard of living, large parts of the country will consume more and more energy.
I have this discussion with people fairly often here. You know what lowers emissions? Poverty. It may not make for clean water, but it sure does lower personal consumption. That's usually met with "no, we need more wealth distribution so people can afford clean energy as wealthier people are greener".
Yes, 6000 square feet within 1 degree end to end 365 days a year, and four cars, but the fourth is a prius, and that's our definition of environmentally conscious. (and let's not forget flying. Take an international flight, and the round trip could be 100 to 400 gallons of fuel for a single passenger. Very green.
What nobody likes to discuss is that if emissions are a problem, the population size is a problem, not per capita usage. Quarter the population, double the consumption vs. double the population and decrease consumption by 50% - which does more?
And we all sit on our computers all the time, too, which has huge energy costs for everything we're connected to.
It's an even game at about 60k miles (for emissions / pollution for a tesla vs. ICE). After that, the electric car becomes clearly less polluting. Not sure when a secondary market for the battery packs will come up, but here in the states where most power is tiered, a pair of those that's got 80% capacity left (which is considered worn out - tesla's target for lifetime is when the pack no longer has 90% of its original capacity) would make a dandy grid tie power demand kind of thing in california where people consuming in the top tier level can end up with power bills of $600+ in the summer.
Last I checked, it was more popular to destroy the packs (I guess there's not enough economic incentive now, and groups like tesla with the powerwall will want to use new batteries to get paid as much as possible for installations).
(I got my 60k mile figure above from a german article where the publisher was looking to prove that battery cars are more polluting than ICE. That was their conclusion - I don't remember what their qualitative conclusion was, because it came out in favor of longer term battery cars, but at least they were honest about it. )
Don't be silly. Windmills cause diabetes, it's solar panels that cause cancer, at least that's what the 5G signals are telling me.
well, looking around for my articles, i see some that can obviously be purchased - such as one claiming that a hummer h2 is less polluting than a prius (all they have to assume is that the prius lifetime is a small fraction of the hummer h2...
.....and anyone here in the states knows the converse is true. The h2 was one of the shortest lived cars ever introduced here and often makes lists of "worst ever".
So, I see articles claiming 100,000km break even and others greater than 180,000km with claims that the average car cannot last that long, and that batteries in EVs don't last nearly that long (which is odd given the tesla experience is greater than 90% capacity at 300,000 km - the rest of the S, as far as I know, is what makes the car depreciate. We'll see how the 3s do - BIL has one and has had no issues in the first 50k miles. <4 cents per mile so far for him to drive it (admittedly high entry cost, but he's an early adopter). He's got a round trip commute that is between 90 and 120 miles a day (and has continued to work on site throughout covid -that commute is why he got a battery car in the first place).
That said, I understand that batteries to be the pollution issue that most argue against. I also think it's odd that the argument is always against a static battery technology (both in cost and pollution). Lithium looks like it will be replaced by sodium at some point in the future for lower energy density use (garbage trucks, etc), and who knows what else will change. In 2010, li-ion batteries were $1183/kwhr according to the googlemonster. $153 last year. Not sure what they were this year, but I heard $120 is a near term target.
I do recall criticism that tesla would never turn a profit because of the loss on the batteries. Now they're considering lowering the price of the model Y in china where it's locally made (i'm sure it's cheaper to make there) and some of the chinese companies are folding on making competing models because they can't make cars profitably at levels that tesla can).
Things change - here in the states, pac. gas wants to get even gas applicances out of houses as I guess grid powered electric appliances pollute less. I didnt' read further into that but would imagine it has something to do with gas not completely burned by appliances.
Can't be that long before we call cars up on an app, anyway.
.....and anyone here in the states knows the converse is true. The h2 was one of the shortest lived cars ever introduced here and often makes lists of "worst ever".
So, I see articles claiming 100,000km break even and others greater than 180,000km with claims that the average car cannot last that long, and that batteries in EVs don't last nearly that long (which is odd given the tesla experience is greater than 90% capacity at 300,000 km - the rest of the S, as far as I know, is what makes the car depreciate. We'll see how the 3s do - BIL has one and has had no issues in the first 50k miles. <4 cents per mile so far for him to drive it (admittedly high entry cost, but he's an early adopter). He's got a round trip commute that is between 90 and 120 miles a day (and has continued to work on site throughout covid -that commute is why he got a battery car in the first place).
That said, I understand that batteries to be the pollution issue that most argue against. I also think it's odd that the argument is always against a static battery technology (both in cost and pollution). Lithium looks like it will be replaced by sodium at some point in the future for lower energy density use (garbage trucks, etc), and who knows what else will change. In 2010, li-ion batteries were $1183/kwhr according to the googlemonster. $153 last year. Not sure what they were this year, but I heard $120 is a near term target.
I do recall criticism that tesla would never turn a profit because of the loss on the batteries. Now they're considering lowering the price of the model Y in china where it's locally made (i'm sure it's cheaper to make there) and some of the chinese companies are folding on making competing models because they can't make cars profitably at levels that tesla can).
Things change - here in the states, pac. gas wants to get even gas applicances out of houses as I guess grid powered electric appliances pollute less. I didnt' read further into that but would imagine it has something to do with gas not completely burned by appliances.
Can't be that long before we call cars up on an app, anyway.
Droogs
Not the Sharpest Moderator in the box
You're out of date on that score as well R. VAG, Tesla and Merc are using less damaging sources of Li and are using only 20% of the amount of Cobalt and falling of what just Shell alone use annually to produce your dead dinousaur juice. You are onto a losers argument. You are our Donald when it comes to facts
Alright if you say so.
Just to see if you will disagree with everything I say, did you know the Earth revolves around the sun?
No it revolves around it's axis and orbits around the sun
.
You sure your name isn't Roger?
The Earth rotates around its axis and revolves around the Sun
(edit: just for clarification for others, I am sure you already knew that)
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Droogs
Not the Sharpest Moderator in the box
Yes, I am sure. I just hate the fallacies people put out about BEVs and the technology. If you really do want to know more about it a great place to start is the "fullycharged" channel on youtube
Right, there is some cost to the cobalt and the lithium, but it is less now than it was half a decade ago. Depending on who is writing the article, pollution will be counted based on current technology (EV defenders) or figures from half a decade or a decade ago (pretty much anyone else).
Just as the prius and hummer study appears to have done - find out what numbers are needed and then go backwards until they're reached. Once the conclusion is dumb, post, anyway.
I don't know how many times I've heard that a prius pollutes more than a full sized truck or whatever else due to the batteries (which are not significant in the pre PHEV priuses).
Progress is a little slower on diesel and gasoline cars. The govt here has generally decided that diesel isn't worth pursuing further for passenger cars. Not because of carbon, but because of other pollution. I used to think this was a stupid thing, but the reality is that a gas hybrid car in the states generally matches a diesel car pretty easily and at about the same initial cost. Diesel is usually higher in price here, too.
And the race to have the most powerful pickup truck (along with emissions controls) has left us with a bunch of overpowered and inefficient diesel pickups that only make economic sense in a business.
Droogs
Not the Sharpest Moderator in the box
@Rorschach don't worry, I'd still lend you a chisel if you needed it
billw
The Tattooed One
You sure your name isn't Roger?
The Earth rotates around it's it's axis and revolves around the Sun
its
I'd never dare borrow a chisel from anyone.
Damn predictive text. Corrected, thanks.
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