Domino Jointers Are they really worth it, or just a gimic

[Distinterior]

I've never cut a Domino mortice with a DF700, hence my question.....

With the Seneca adapter fitted to the DF700, do you have to use it upside down in the same way as you would if the similar adaptor Seneca offer was fitted to the DF500...??

The reason I ask is, the balance of my DF500 is really nice and ergonomic, so I would imagine it must feel rather odd operating either tool with these adapters fitted.

 

[hugov]

I bought a DF500 last year, and like others here I ummmed and aahhed about that versus a DF700 versus perhaps a biscuit jointer for a big kitchen cabinets project.

My research lead me to conclude that biscuit jointer would really only be useful to me for panel glue-ups as an alignment aide (they don't seem to add strength), but I find I can get perfectly fine edge glued joints without one. I don't think it'd speed things up either (for me).

Conversely, the Domino replaced dowels and mostly replaced screws for me, mostly in applications that I couldn't have used a biscuit anyway, and even if I could have, I wouldn't have trusted the resulting joint strength.

For me, it has enabled two things that probably earn the label, "game changer".

Firstly, I'm quite lazy, and the Domino is faster than alternative joints most of the time making it much easier for me to do things properly and accurately. (Example: last weekend I made a simple plywood box to house some automated irrigation bits in the garden – screws would have done the job fine but I used dominos since that was faster and resulted in a cleaner and more accurate box ... not that it needed to be in this case!) Secondly, I can dry assemble and disassemble complex assemblies using Dominos quickly and easily, and they're fairly rigid when dry assembled. This (perhaps combined with the laziness has greatly improved the joinery results and accuracy I'm achieving.

As for 500 vs 700, the ergonomics were the main thing for me. I didn't have any immediate use for 12 or 14mm tenons, and knew I'd use the smaller and easier to handle tool a lot more than something bulky, heavy and ungainly. The ergonomics are really good – I especially like the "system" aspects, sharing the plug-it cable and extractor hose with my track saw (my only other Festool product), in fact enough that I'm now considering replacing my hand held router with a Festool for that reason.

 

[JobandKnock]

The DF500 isn't bad to use with a Domiplate. It takes a bit of getting used to, but the speed gains when doing boxes and carcasses make it very worthwhile for the tradesman.

 

[Spectric]

What is this 'Seneca' add-on you talk about please?

I have and use the Senaca one for 6mm cutters, cannot see me going any smaller and it works great, I never exceed 25mm depth with this little cutter, and for me the bigger 700 is used more with 10 & 12 mm dominos but Festool would prefer I buy a 500 as well. I think the domain for the 500 is with the MDF cabinet brigade where the 28mm max depth is ok but I like the ability to go 70mm on the 700.

With the adaptor you can use it with a domi plate, the normal fence or an FC tools plate as it makes no odds, just allows the smaller cutters to be used in the larger machine.

 

[Jake]

OK but if it's an issue they don't take up much floor space - much like a pillar drill. Not very mobile though.

They also only do the mortice. The loose tenon of a domino might be inferior over the very long term (although there's an argument the multiple tenon it enables with much less effort is better with more glue surface) but with modern glues rather than boiled up fish and bone how many decades are are we talking about before we see the betterness?

A domino joint (even a multiple one) is quicker to mark up and then it is zip zip, joint done both sides.

I love to love tradition, but I'm probably going to sell my little morticer as it is just gathering dust.

In a pro situation with large numbers of repeat joints, pre-sets on a double headed tenoner and a morticer, I'd use that instead, it would feel more right.

That's not the domino target though.

 

[NormanB]

£4.5k - £5k for a bike!- Sounds like the Festool of ebikes!

My son thinks I’m mad spending so much on the Domino. If I chose to sell it I figure I would achieve good resale value.
I think he is mad replacing his iPhone every time a new model comes out, he is currently on the larger format iPhone 12 and gets a very poor trade in value on his old handset (especially if I buy it.).

It’s only money (and it’s your hard earned) and people’s needs and wants are very different. It’s certainly not going to earn much in the bank.

 

[JobandKnock]

My son thinks I’m mad spending so much on the Domino. If I chose to sell it I figure I would achieve good resale value.
I think he is mad replacing his iPhone every time a new model comes out, he is currently on the larger format iPhone 12 and gets a very poor trade in value on his old handset (especially if I buy it.).

The main difference between a 6 year old iPhone in seemingly good nick and a Domino in good nick is that the iPhone is worth next to nothing (and probably doesn't work any longer) whilst the Domino is probably still worth 70 to 80% of its' original sticker price if not more. No wonder Peter Millard reckons his has cost him nothing

I seriously never considered that until it was pointed out to me in a video. I have always just thought in terms of writing stuff down over 3 to 5 years and the replacing as required

 

[recipio]

Conventional biscuits and dominoes need one extra tool - a sash clamp. Of course k/d festool products are available but they leave a hole in the horizontal component to be covered. I'm drawn to the Lamello Tenso clips which will allow butt and mitred joints to simply clip together. Great for wardrobes and bookshelves and I'm going to be making a lot more of those than say, workbenches. I have a Domino 500 and its great for most small projects but I would struggle to find uses for the big 700. Even if I were making doors for a house I would use profile and scribing tools for a more professional look. Horses for courses etc but the Lamello Zeta is on my shopping list.

 

[ArferMo]

....... I'm drawn to the Lamello Tenso clips which will allow butt and mitred joints to simply clip together. Great for wardrobes and bookshelves and I'm going to be making a lot more of those than say, workbenches. I have a Domino 500 and its great for most small projects....

Exactly this!

The Lamello Tenso fixing is absolutely brilliant and solves so many problems. With sheet goods there is no need for anything else. I have a Domino 500 but it is mainly the Lamello Zeta that gets chosen for the job.

 

[John Brown]

No need to choose between biscuits or Domino. You can have both.
Original 1960's Jacobs Domino Biscuits Still in Unopened Wrapper Very Rare Find | #425211638

 

[TRITON]

Further reading on Dominos(thanks to the informative replies on this thread,) led to a nifty little easy to make jig on one of the YT makers.
I think when I get time I'll give it a go. Mainly as it gives another route of construction.

Conventional biscuits and dominoes need one extra tool - a sash clamp. Of course k/d festool products are available but they leave a hole in the horizontal component to be covered. I'm drawn to the Lamello Tenso clips which will allow butt and mitred joints to simply clip together. Great for wardrobes and bookshelves and I'm going to be making a lot more of those than say, workbenches. I have a Domino 500 and its great for most small projects but I would struggle to find uses for the big 700. Even if I were making doors for a house I would use profile and scribing tools for a more professional look. Horses for courses etc but the Lamello Zeta is on my shopping list.

Something about it on one of the other vids.


Mustn't be bias. Biscuits have their place but one should always consider all methods.

 

[ArferMo]

Further reading on Dominos(thanks to the informative replies on this thread,) led to a nifty little easy to make jig on one of the YT makers.
I think when I get time I'll give it a go. Mainly as it gives another route of construction.


Something about it on one of the other vids.


Mustn't be bias. Biscuits have their place but one should always consider all methods.

Peanuts are limited function connectors: butt joints only, pretty much. Cheap and cheerful. I used to do very similar with #10 wood screws at a slight tilt, so the countersink head would climb the pocket when driven sideways to edge join boards. That was over half a century ago and it's now been resurrected and over-hyped as peanut.

Nuts is about right. And YouTube 'what's his face' is just making a living promoting it. He's given up the day job, remember. His video showing the peanut faster than a Zeta 2 constructing a cabinet, rather neatly neglected to fully account for the time spent making peanut's jigs. A little less than honest IMHO.

 

[sometimewoodworker]

Nuts is about right. And YouTube 'what's his face' is just making a living promoting it. He's given up the day job, remember. His video showing the peanut faster than a Zeta 2 constructing a cabinet, rather neatly neglected to fully account for the time spent making peanut's jigs. A little less than honest IMHO.

Sour grapes? Ad hominem insults?
The jigs are not home made.

I doubt that the payback is remotely close to your imagined amount.

I would not use that, or your version of that, fixing method as neither suits my style. Your method requires learning how to use it (more accuracy), the peanut needs you to buy those and the jigs (more money).

 

[petermillard]

Peanuts are limited function connectors: butt joints only, pretty much. Cheap and cheerful. I used to do very similar with #10 wood screws at a slight tilt, so the countersink head would climb the pocket when driven sideways to edge join boards. That was over half a century ago and it's now been resurrected and over-hyped as peanut.

Cheap & cheerful, yes - that’s the point, you don’t have to spend £1500 on a Zeta and 70p per Tenso to get a self-clamping connector. And like the Tenso, Domino, Dowel, Clamex, biscuit etc... it’s for butt and bevel joints. The carcass jig that I made in the above video, yes, that’s for the 90° butt joints that made up 95% of the work I did; nothing to stop you making one that works on bevel joints if that’s what you need. Or buying the Peanut jig.

As for ‘it’s just a screw in a slot...’ same principle, but very different - and patented - mechanics Involved.

Nuts is about right. And YouTube 'what's his face' is just making a living promoting it. He's given up the day job, remember. His video showing the peanut faster than a Zeta 2 constructing a cabinet, rather neatly neglected to fully account for the time spent making peanut's jigs. A little less than honest IMHO.

Yes, I stopped making fitted furniture over a year ago to concentrate on making videos - not an actual crime - but either way, yes, of course there is an expectation of payment, wether I’m making you a wardrobe or showing you how, but I’ve never taken money off anyone to make a video or promote a product, and if there is any financial benefit involved eg affiliate income, then this is clearly stated, as is required by law here in Britain.

As for the time taken in making the carcass jig, it took all of 20 minutes and was covered in a previous video. At the risk of stating the obvious, you only need to make it once for it to be effective on multiple carcasses - that’s the point of making a jig, to streamline repetitive tasks and make them easier/faster. In the above video I also didn’t allow for the marking out with the Lamello either - which was significant - but including it wouldn’t be fair as there was no marking out with the carcass jig.

As someone who’s owned a Zeta for a while - bought and paid for one fitted wardrobe, one bookcase, one alcove unit at a time - I really expected it to be better/faster/easier than ~£300s worth of jig & router lash-up - even one as finely lashed-up as mine was - but the video doesn’t lie.

For anyone thinking that a Lamello Zeta and Tenso fittings are some kind of holy grail, prepare to be a little disappointed. In my experience the Tenso fittings really don’t apply enough clamping pressure (~7kg/fitting) for any carcass to be moved/handled before the glue is dry. The Clamex fittings are immensely strong, but of course, you get an access hole that needs to be covered. ‍♂

HTH P

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

This topic comes up occasionally on various fori, and the common response is for someone to slag off biscuits after they have purchased a Domino. Generally the point is missed, in my opinion.

By choice, I built solid wood furniture using traditional joinery with hand tools. That is my go-to for quality furniture. I would not use a domino for large mortice and tenon joints - the advantage of proper M&T joinery is that one can design the joint to fit the purpose. Dominos are one shape (in different sizes) fits all.

Still, I use machines because they are the appropriate tools for preparing boards, and I have all the power tools most could wish for. That includes a Festool Domino DF500 and a DeWalt biscuit machine. Both are useful and both have strengths and weaknesses. Keep in mind that dominos are short and deep (like mortice and tenon joints) and biscuits are long and shallow (like a spline).

When I built my kitchen I used the Domino for the great many frame-and-panel doors. These needed mortice-and-tenon joints. I am presently building a couple of bedside tables, which have mitred edges. These use biscuits. The case is 19mm thick and I could not use dominos to reinforce the mitres (as the mortice would go straight through the board).

I do believe that the bad rep biscuits got was due to their being used inappropriately. They are never going to be a replacement for a loose tenon since they are too shallow. Similarly, dominos cannot replace biscuits with shallow joinery since their strength lies in their depth.

Get both machines. I am waiting for the great revival of biscuit machines, which will occur when many realised they they were hasty in getting rid of theirs!

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[ArferMo]

...snip...

Yes, I stopped making fitted furniture over a year ago to concentrate on making videos - not an actual crime - but either way, yes, of course there is an expectation of payment, wether I’m making you a wardrobe or showing you how, but I’ve never taken money off anyone to make a video or promote a product, and if there is any financial benefit involved eg affiliate income, then this is clearly stated, as is required by law here in Britain.
... snip ...

Yes,, and whist you were making furniture, and some useful videos along the way, we could all see your integrity but always slightly mindful you might have been hyping products. For me, and I only speak for me, knowing you have an income from the videos now - Google advertisng fees for a start - makes the videos you produce more suspect. Sorry, but that is the way it is; you've demoted yourself to become an 'influencer' with about as much credibility as Piers Morgan's left foot.

Aminster say "The Tenso is part of the Lamello Zeta connector range; it anchors in the T-slot in the 'P' system groove. This invisible fitting clamps two parts together with a tensile force of 15kg. The retention force of 25kg makes a tight connection that does away with the need for clamps. Use the Tenso with glue or with normal biscuits or other 'P' style connectors." ... so 15kg clamping force rather than 7kg petermiilard suggests. Also try using the peanut on long mitres!

 

[deema]

Yes,, and whist you were making furniture, and some useful videos along the way, we could all see your integrity but always slightly mindful you might have been hyping products. For me, and I only speak for me, knowing you have an income from the videos now - Google advertisng fees for a start - makes the videos you produce more suspect. Sorry, but that is the way it is; you've demoted yourself to become an 'influencer' with about as much credibility as Piers Morgan's left foot.

Aminster say "The Tenso is part of the Lamello Zeta connector range; it anchors in the T-slot in the 'P' system groove. This invisible fitting clamps two parts together with a tensile force of 15kg. The retention force of 25kg makes a tight connection that does away with the need for clamps. Use the Tenso with glue or with normal biscuits or other 'P' style connectors." ... so 15kg clamping force rather than 7kg petermiilard suggests. Also try using the peanut on long mitres!

I‘m always intrigued by some who feel the need to personalise things. I’m very much anti Woke and believe we are all entitled to an opinion, regardless of how that may upset others, but it can always be made without it becoming personal. In my opinion thats the mark of gentlemanly behaviour.

 

[JobandKnock]

Get both machines. I am waiting for the great revival of biscuit machines, which will occur when many realised they they were hasty in getting rid of theirs!

If you want to extend the "range" of a BJ, Google "Knapp-Verbinder" and take a look at their range of specialist biscuit fixings.

Both the BJ and the Domino have their place, especially in low volume commercial work where they can help you stay competitive/affordable in a market (like kitchens or built-ins) that often doesn't give a rat's cuss about M&T joints or hand cut dovetails. Not all woodworking is top drawer stuff, nor does it need to be

 

[TRITON]

Please be aware the peanut joint is a KNOCKDOWN joint fixing, of which there have been plenty over the years and this is just the latest.
They are part of the shopfitting industry, and nothing to get upset about.

While at college all the new cabinetmaker apprentices et all would poo poo stuff like MDF, with lots of nonsense about it being this or that and having no place in 'real' furniture making.
This is of course a load of dingoes kidneys, it is a medium like many other and has properties best suited to multiple forms of construction.

Of course, by year 4, many had MDF in their final projects, especially when veneering large surfaces.

 

[pe2dave]

I‘m always intrigued by some who feel the need to personalise things. I’m very much anti Woke and believe we are all entitled to an opinion, regardless of how that may upset others, but it can always be made without it becoming personal. In my opinion thats the mark of gentlemanly behaviour.

I too am anti "woke".
Mainly 'cos I've not a clue what it means!
(Aside from that I agree with your sentiment. If you can't be polite, say nowt).