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Right - summarizing the thread so far:

1) Some people like wooden marking gauges.

2) Some people like wheel marking gauges.

3) Some poor, misguided souls (including me) saw the thread title 'Core Tool Kit' and thought it was a thread about core tool kits. Silly people.

Both wheel and wooden marking gauges are readily available, with all sorts of minor variants of both, including user-made modifications. Thus, both schools of thought can easily be satisfied.

Good. That's that sorted then. Can we get back to arguing about sharpening, now?
 
Hello,

CC, why don't you start a core tool kit thread? Right from the off, This one was never about core tool kit, but about a cretain moaning about what he sees as unnecessarily efficient tools. Or put it another way, what he sees as an unnecessary expense. Why he won't let alone those who have decided that thier level of expectation is higher than something Noah might have had, defats me. For me, woodwork is still advancing and perfecting skills and methods. I'm not going to fetter myself with some antiquated methods, just because it was done 200 years ago, without question. There has never been a perfect device made, there is always room for improvement and development and as someone who designs things for a living, I have to question what has gone before as well as what we see today, and evaluate and improve. It would be remiss of me as a designer to accept 2 bits of wood with a nail stuck into it, as the best solution to marking a line. Woodwork isn't dead, it is evolving and improving and it must unless we want it to be some museum show for the curious historian.

Mike.
 
Jacob":2m080fh3 said:
Tapered pin keeps things simple.
If you have a flat side then there is a 50% chance it'll be on the wrong side, so you'll need 2 gauges, or if it's a wheel you'll have to keep turning it. There'll be a lot of confusion. With a tapered pin it's the centre of the line every time. The tiny bevel is insignificant and unlikely to be seen in the finished work

You have a choice - either accept "half an error" all the time (the taper) or use a flat to get the error down to zero. Having multiple gauges is not a problem - someone in this thread (presumably a collector) claimed to have a dozen anyway...

In both cases the error can be reduced by using a thinner blade/pin.

The superiority of a knife/wheel when marking cross grain is a separate issue.

BugBear
 
This was a thread brought across from another forum in order for a certain person to express his vitriol towards certain people over there!
It was taken completely out of context as Woodbrains and others have tried to point out.
If you don't answer him he'll soon get bored but I'm afraid you do.

Rod
 
bugbear":15cwav4x said:
You have a choice - either accept "half an error" all the time (the taper) or use a flat to get the error down to zero. Having multiple gauges is not a problem - someone in this thread (presumably a collector) claimed to have a dozen anyway...

In both cases the error can be reduced by using a thinner blade/pin.

The superiority of a knife/wheel when marking cross grain is a separate issue.

BugBear


if the pin is thin and you don't dig it in deep the line is plenty fine. the displaced wood is very little and is compressed to the side anyway, where it is still available for burnishing back or will likely swell back up with the moisture from glue.
 
bridger":pqfio9ek said:
bugbear":pqfio9ek said:
You have a choice - either accept "half an error" all the time (the taper) or use a flat to get the error down to zero. Having multiple gauges is not a problem - someone in this thread (presumably a collector) claimed to have a dozen anyway...

In both cases the error can be reduced by using a thinner blade/pin.

The superiority of a knife/wheel when marking cross grain is a separate issue.

BugBear


if the pin is thin and you don't dig it in deep the line is plenty fine. the displaced wood is very little and is compressed to the side anyway, where it is still available for burnishing back or will likely swell back up with the moisture from glue.
Yes. Or in other words - if you don't think about it it won't be a problem.

They won't give up will they, all these people desperately anxious to prove that woodwork is really difficult and almost impossible!
 
bridger":2mrb6ipm said:
the displaced wood is very little and is compressed to the side anyway, where it is still available for burnishing back or will likely swell back up with the moisture from glue.

Excellent point - thank you.

BugBear
 
After all the enthusiasm for basic pin-gauges, I thought I might have missed something.

Being unable to pass up gorgeous box-wood screwed gauges priced at 50p when they come up at car boots
(which they do, often) I have "some" in a Tesco 6-bottle wine box.

Pieces of scrap timber to hand. I worked my way through, and herewith my observations:

Two of them had stems that stuck.

Most of them had stems that were loose in the non-screw direction.

Two had stems that slid with no sideways motion at all.

I found no evidence of Clenton-style "camming" in any of them

More interesting was their performance in use. In the more recent examples, with a long, narrow, sharp pin, much
more care was needed (including the "running on the edge of the stem" technique") to prevent the pin digging in,
following the grain, or juddering. The gauges were still usable, just more work to use.

The easiest gauges were those with a well worn, short pin - just a nub, really. These were easy to use,
and left a clearer mark.

In hindsight, this is fairly obvious; a fine, long pin is likely to penetrate deeply, which serves no practical purpose;
the visibility of a mark is mainly determined by its width not its depth.

So we may have found that most unusual of tools, one which which works better when blunt. Should
save some arguments. :D

I found the fact that the working point is hidden by the stem slightly disconcerting, since I'm used to being able
to see the point. However, I acknowledge that (in practice) the gauges are perfectly usable,
just not quite as easy to use (since the pin comes out the back of the stem, its position is "obvious" if
not actually visible). I'd probably get used to it, I suppose.

In short - as carpenters since the Mary Rose have known - the classic marking gauge works OK. What a surprise.

Here's a marking gauge from the Mary Rose (the museum was dark, so the picture is not great)

gauge.jpg


However, this does not mean it cannot be improved on.

The across the diagonal screw feature of the 5061
make the stem slide perfectly, without wobble, and is even tolerant of seasonal movement and inaccurate manufacture.
However, since it requires a little adapter piece, its invention probably had to wait on injection moulded
plastic (which is how Stanley make the little piece).

I also prefer the diagonal fixing of the pin; this not only makes it visible, but it builds
a high degree of "trail" into the design, making it far less prone to catching and juddering.

It is of note that the 5061 was not sold as a "premium" gauge, it was just Stanley's normal
offering, at a normal price. I have NO IDEA why they stopped making it. :(

BugBear
 

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bugbear":2c8qplu9 said:
......
It is of note that the 5061 was not sold as a "premium" gauge, it was just Stanley's normal
offering, at a normal price. I have NO IDEA why they stopped making it. :(

BugBear
Lots of firms made them, I guess probably cheaper than the Stanley.

Re you prob with "juddering" and "following the grain" you just need a bit more practice, not a radical re-design! These problems are normal with absolute beginners but you will soon get the hang of it

What are you making BTW?
 
AndyT":1658xki3 said:
Here's a better picture of the Mary Rose skantyllion:

mary-rose-gauge.jpg


and a line drawing

mary-rose-marking-gauge.jpg


Both from: http://thomasguild.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/the-medieval-toolchest-marking-gauge-or.html

It's not possible to see whether the pin was round or filed to a knife shape. After five hundred years under water, it needs a little fettling.
It's got the D section shaft which makes it self aligning when tightening, as well as being easier to hold. Or if not you just take off a gnats - a minutes work.
These very simple tools are often much more developed and sophisticated than they look. In fact good design in many areas is often not obvious, hence the novice tendency towards bells, whistles, shine and brass knobs. And frills
 
bugbear":3fy8m6ut said:
The across the diagonal screw feature of the 5061
make the stem slide perfectly, without wobble, and is even tolerant of seasonal movement and inaccurate manufacture.
However, since it requires a little adapter piece, its invention probably had to wait on injection moulded
plastic (which is how Stanley make the little piece).

Does it need the plastic adaptor piece ? the stem need not be square in section. The key is clamping into a corner by setting it on the diagonal; a big chamfer on the top edge of the sliding stem for the screw to clamp on to, and a hole in the stock shaped to match, with a nice fat boxwood screw ought to work reasonably ? You could even use the little captive wedge type clamping mechanism onto a chamfer.
 
Sheffield Tony":1zyu69z5 said:
bugbear":1zyu69z5 said:
The across the diagonal screw feature of the 5061
make the stem slide perfectly, without wobble, and is even tolerant of seasonal movement and inaccurate manufacture.
However, since it requires a little adapter piece, its invention probably had to wait on injection moulded
plastic (which is how Stanley make the little piece).

Does it need the plastic adaptor piece ? the stem need not be square in section. The key is clamping into a corner by setting it on the diagonal; a big chamfer on the top edge of the sliding stem for the screw to clamp on to, and a hole in the stock shaped to match, with a nice fat boxwood screw ought to work reasonably ? You could even use the little captive wedge type clamping mechanism onto a chamfer.
I haven't looked at it but it sounds over designed to me.
 
5601 clone.



You don't need a shoe if you plane a big flat on the edge used for clamping, but you will get problems with it moving when tightening, most gauges have a pad to stop this happening.

Oval with wedge.



Pin close up.



All home made, the oval one is the easiest to get the shaft at 90 degrees to the head the 5601 needs careful paring of the hole opposite to the screw.

Pete
 
Pete Maddex":1mmnshyr said:
5601 clone.


I bet Stanley could injection mould those faster than you can solder 'em !!

Here's an image of the (over designed :D ) 5061 components, courtesy Sellers.

PICT0021.jpg


BugBear
 

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Nice work Pete.

I find that old thick belts make very useful pads, to stop the wooden shaft from getting scored by plastic thumbscrew.

Rotating a squarish shaft does require less components, which I like.

David
 
Here's another homemade approach, if making again would try and use a bit more finesse on proportions, finish, and the pin !











Cheers, Paul
 

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