Core tool kit

[David C]

Noel,

I am very sorry if my comment appeared to be arrogant. It was not intended. I have the greatest respect for all trades, but was implying that different tolerances might apply.

The constant bellittling of people's worthwile efforts to improve a very crudely made tool, is thoroughly objectionable.

David

 

[RogerS]

Its funny how Jacob takes his usual swipes and nothings said - Yet Charlesworth gets the rib-poke with one off-the-cuff comment. Laughable really.

Was it ever thus.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Noel - thank you for your reply. However, whether you type as a woodwoker or as a mod, on reflection I think my comment stands.

Jacob - the last sentence of my comment asked everybody to respect different points of view and different approaches to working wood. To be clear, that 'everyone' includes you, too. You have a valid point of view in your support of the wooden marking gauge, but it would have carried more weight if put forward in a more positive tone - you can extoll it's virtues without resort to the sneery (and I stand by the use of the word 'sneery') tone your original post took towards the wheel gauge. Others use and like wheel marking gauges, and they're perfectly entitled to their opinion, too.

I also think that since the thread has descended into 'discussion' not really related to marking gauges (or 'Core Tool Kits'!), it's maybe time it was locked, and we can all move on to other matters.

 

[bugbear]

In a bid to add actual information, I've photographed the (bottom of the) 5061 head.

Although hard to see, there's a 1/8" chamfer on all the corners of the stem,
which means that it can easily sit fully "home" in the corner.

This system means that the stem need only be sized to a couple of
mm accuracy, as long as the sides that engages the head mortise are near to perpendicular;
they have designed out the need for precision.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

On the wheel gauge - Doug showed his Veritas this morning. Very pretty little tool in the Veritas "steam punk" house style - shiny steel, brass, black enamel, celtic lettering, very ornamental.
One glaring design fault - it's round and will roll off a bench. Result in this case - chipped wheel. Easy fix however - just file a flat on the fence.
The actual cut it makes is very tiny and wouldn't do for many applications. Also the wheel is bevelled so the cut is to one side. You could turn the wheel to cut the other side but I guess it'd then tend to push away - I think others have confirmed this. A fix for this would be a central cutting wheel. Or drill a hole and insert a pin instead.
The adjustment is fiddly - the ordinary wooden gauge is quicker and easier (tapping the end for fine adjustment). You couldn't tap the end of the Veritas as one end has the wheel and in any case you wouldn't have the friction grip of a wooden shaft.
It's quite comfortable to hold but a bit tiny so I suspect with prolonged use you'd get cramped fingers. Maybe not.
Verdict: Doesn't do anything which an ordinary gauge won't do and more easily. Somewhat pointless but very ornamental.

 

[Jacob]

In a bid to add actual information, I've photographed the (bottom of the) 5061 head.

View attachment 5061

Although hard to see, there's a 1/8" chamfer on all the corners of the stem,
which means that it can easily sit fully "home" in the corner.

This system means that the stem need only be sized to a couple of
mm accuracy, as long as the sides that engages the head mortise are near to perpendicular;
they have designed out the need for precision.

BugBear

You could say much the same of the normal D section, which also doesn't need the clamping piece and so is simpler.

 

[AndyT]

Here's some more thoughts / info on some wooden marking gauges.

A while back I bought a box of about a dozen gauges on eBay for a fiver. As well as a nice mortice gauge it included these three:

They are all clearly marked by the previous owner:

They may well have been made by him - they use a wedge, which (as has been pointed out) needs no special thread cutting tools. (I've replaced the wedge on one.)

One of the benefits of buying old tools is that you can learn how someone else solved a problem. Mr Galloway clearly did not bother finding anything more exotic than a panel pin to make his gauges, but on all three of these, he did bother filing the pin into a knife shape:

And they work well. This is across the grain on some ash - just right for marking the limit of dovetails

And this is with the grain - but not being deviated by it - on a piece of wavy oak:

 

[Racers]

In a bid to add actual information, I've photographed the (bottom of the) 5061 head.

View attachment 5061

Although hard to see, there's a 1/8" chamfer on all the corners of the stem,
which means that it can easily sit fully "home" in the corner.

This system means that the stem need only be sized to a couple of
mm accuracy, as long as the sides that engages the head mortise are near to perpendicular;
they have designed out the need for precision.

BugBear

You could say much the same of the normal D section, which also doesn't need the clamping piece and so is simpler.

Mmm not sure I can agree with that Jacob, the screw can only clamp in one direction the other direction is limited by the fit of the shaft and hole.
Whereas the Stanley clamps in two directions, shame they stopped making it.

Pete

 

[iNewbie]

Its funny how Jacob takes his usual swipes and nothings said - Yet Charlesworth gets the rib-poke with one off-the-cuff comment. Laughable really.

Actually it's the other way round. If you bother to read the thread you'll find that I am criticising ideas and methods but not being offensive to anybody personally (except answering back - I'm no angel!). But a whole mob including yourself start getting on their high horses and being downright offensive even when, like you, they have got absolutely nothing interesting to say about anything much.
I wasn't rude to Dave at any point until he started on "The arrogance and lack of ambition are really quite breathtaking" etc etc.
Some people just can't handle being disagreed with. Some people need to grow up.

I was going to post some snaps of my gauges tomorrow, if the thread hasn't come to any harm overnight!

PS and it's not about "purely to sneer at one particular tool" ("sneer" is an odd term re criticising a tool!) it's about trying to reassert the value of the alternative - a simple and under-appreciated tool, and by implication, many other "ordinary" tools which tend to get dismissed by the new boys.

Um, no you are looking to be offensive and its your M.O. This forums littered with your other, side...

Its not the disagreement on here its your written tone, you come across as a santimoanious knob. Your schick is basically nothing more than your own "Guru's" Paul Sellers mutterings, only, he does it with some class so he gets taken more seriously. At least he isn't suffering from Blinkered Vision on new tools or certain companies...

Recommends a Clifton 4/4.5, and uses Veritas - silly man... :roll:

https://paulsellers.com/2012/12/questio ... and-4-12s/

On the wheel gauge - Doug showed his Veritas this morning. Very pretty little tool in the Veritas "steam punk" house style - shiny steel, brass, black enamel, celtic lettering, very ornamental.
One glaring design fault - it's round and will roll off a bench. Result in this case - chipped wheel. Easy fix however - just file a flat on the fence.

The Mortice one won't and the SS Ltd Ed won't either - keep up! But then there are ways to stop it rolling off a bench if thats an issue for you...

http://www.billyslittlebench.com/blog/v ... ool-review

Carry on...

 

[Jacob]

In a bid to add actual information, I've photographed the (bottom of the) 5061 head.

View attachment 5061

Although hard to see, there's a 1/8" chamfer on all the corners of the stem,
which means that it can easily sit fully "home" in the corner.

This system means that the stem need only be sized to a couple of
mm accuracy, as long as the sides that engages the head mortise are near to perpendicular;
they have designed out the need for precision.

BugBear

You could say much the same of the normal D section, which also doesn't need the clamping piece and so is simpler.

Mmm not sure I can agree with that Jacob, the screw can only clamp in one direction the other direction is limited by the fit of the shaft and hole.
Whereas the Stanley clamps in two directions, shame they stopped making it.

Pete

The screw pushes the shaft over until it's "cupped" in the side of the D. It's then very fixed and won't wobble even if it's a very loose fit to start with. I've got a dozen or so here - non of them wobble. They could do if worn out of shape or wrong components put together, but then it'd be an easy fix with quick pass of the plane. It's sort of the same but different from your Stanley design.

 

[bugbear]

On the wheel gauge - Doug showed his Veritas this morning. Very pretty little tool in the Veritas "steam punk" house style - shiny steel, brass, black enamel, celtic lettering, very ornamental.
One glaring design fault - it's round and will roll off a bench. Result in this case - chipped wheel. Easy fix however - just file a flat on the fence.
The actual cut it makes is very tiny and wouldn't do for many applications. Also the wheel is bevelled so the cut is to one side. You could turn the wheel to cut the other side but I guess it'd then tend to push away - I think others have confirmed this. A fix for this would be a central cutting wheel. Or drill a hole and insert a pin instead.
The adjustment is fiddly - the ordinary wooden gauge is quicker and easier (tapping the end for fine adjustment). You couldn't tap the end of the Veritas as one end has the wheel and in any case you wouldn't have the friction grip of a wooden shaft.
It's quite comfortable to hold but a bit tiny so I suspect with prolonged use you'd get cramped fingers. Maybe not.
Verdict: Doesn't do anything which an ordinary gauge won't do and more easily. Somewhat pointless but very ornamental.

Agreed on most points, and especially the rolling body; it's very odd since their small 3-in-1 gauge has a round body with an offcentre stem
position which neatly solves the issue.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.a ... at=1,42936

BugBear

 

[Kalimna]

I would suggest that there is one thing the wheel gauge does that a 'standard' wooden gauge doesn't - acting as a depth gauge for simply transferring the thickness or depth of a piece of wood or mortise to another piece. For instance I have used it following the creation of a neck mortise in a guitar body for transfer to the neck tenon and also transferring whilst marking up dovetails. I know there are other methods, but I find using the wheel gauge very quick and easy for this.

Cheers,
Adam

 

[bugbear]

The screw pushes the shaft over until it's "cupped" in the side of the D. It's then very fixed and won't wobble even if it's a very loose fit to start with. I've got a dozen or so here - non of them wobble. They could do if worn out of shape or wrong components put together, but then it'd be an easy fix with quick pass of the plane. It's sort of the same but different from your Stanley design.

This start to be interesting;

The relationship between the height and radius of the curve in both the stem and the mortice need to have quite a particular (and unobvious) mismatch in size and shape for the cupping to happen nicely; IMHO the 5061 system is simpler, but the 'D' can be made to work in this way.

So - upper picture is a simple, well fitted stem, which certainly won't wobble.

The lower picture is the rather more complex 5061-a-like scenario. Note where the stem does (and doesn't) touch the mortice.

I would welcome comment (votes?) from people as to how their D stem gauges are (in fact) behaving; the symptom to look for is the gap, labelled red in the lower diagram. (My box of gauges doesn't show any of the lower diagram cases; some of them aren't the upper case either :-( ).

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Exactly that. You've got it but there are variations!
The sides of some of my gauges have become grooved over the years from pressure of the screw. Paradoxically this makes them a better fit as the cupping impacts on the high points and can be more positive.

 

[Noel]

Noel,

I am very sorry if my comment appeared to be arrogant. It was not intended. I have the greatest respect for all trades, but was implying that different tolerances might apply.

The constant bellittling of people's worthwile efforts to improve a very crudely made tool, is thoroughly objectionable.

David

No worries David.

 

[bugbear]

Exactly that. You've got it but there are variations!

What I've got i just a diagram - I'm not sure how well my diagram reflects reality; I certainly can't find any gauges that
work that way in my "collection".

I'd be interested to see diagrams (use mine as a start point?) of the other variations you have in mind.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

I'll take a few photos when I have a spare moment.

 

[John15]

Regarding wheel gauges rolling off the bench, there is one manufacturer, maybe Wood River, who puts a flat on the fence.

John

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

It could be knocked off the bench, but in the 10 years I've enjoyed my wheel gauge, it has never rolled off, ever. To be fair, I'm not on board ship, so cannot comment in other situations than my LEVEL bench. I think Newton might have something to say about the likelyhood anything rolling off a level bench.

The Stanley wooden gauge, 5061, is easily the best design of its type and any argument against it is rather purile. It is distilled to the simplest form it could be, always locks up tight and square, without any fettling or unnecessary tight tolerances, in fact it compensates for variation in tolerance for the tools life, which is likely to be extremely long as it also incorporates a device to combat wear. This device should be celebrated as a design icon IMHO as there are few tools that are as near a perfect device as this. With a bit of common sense, the pin, which protrudes at the back could be ground to a knife edge, on either end, but bevels on opposite sides. This would give us a gauge with the ability to scribe lines with the bevel in the waste, whether marking for dovetails (bevel towards fence) or gauging for thickness (bevel away from fence). This is a great gauge and Stanley should be urged to reintroduce it!

Surely the gauge with a D shaped stem would perform better with the screw opposite the D?

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

.... think Newton might have something to say about the likelyhood anything rolling off a level bench.

He'd patiently explain to you that they could get nudged. I've only seen one, and that had a chipped wheel. 100% failure rate!

The Stanley wooden gauge, 5061, is easily the best design of its type and any argument against it is rather purile. It is distilled to the simplest form it could be, ....

No it's not as simple as the standard model - it has one more component with no particular gain that I can see. I'm sure it works perfectly but so do the others.

Why are so many on here so desperate to traduce the ordinary marking gauge, as used happily by millions over many generations - back to the Mary Rose (see above) and no doubt much older? "Cheap crude and nasty, maybe ok for site workers" according to one poster! It's a phenomenon in it's own right, which accounts for the length of this thread I guess.