Core tool kit

[bugbear]

What's the advantage of having the pin at an angle rather than 90 degrees?

That was one of the main points of "discussion" in the rest of this thread!!

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

That looks nice Paul albeit chunky =D>

What's the advantage of having the pin at an angle rather than 90 degrees?

Regards Keith

There isn't one really. The "improved" version is a bit notional. There are millions of them out there which nobody has felt the need to improve in this way.
Square shaft is a disadvantage as it could seat less well, as compared to the various rounded forms common, and also is less comfortable in the hand. This is important if you are doing a big batch - you could be marking up for several days.
The flat sided pin is problematic as it is quite common to want to make the same mark on different components e.g. a half housing, where the waste will be on opposite sides of the pin, so you would need two gauges. Endless confusion would ensue! Simpler to have a normal pin and see the centre of the line as the mark.
If you must have a pad of some sort then the mortice gauge type metal button would be good. Something about the size of a half-farthing** set into a recess. It'd stay in place until the shaft was pulled right out. But with a fat plastic or wooden screw this is not necessary as long as the end is nicely flattened off.
The wedge pattern is common with home-made ones as wood-screw taps/dies are not that common, but the wood/plastic screw is much superior in operation - coarse thread for rapid action and easy adjustment and wide flat end for grip.
These tools are highly sophisticated having been developed in the hands of their users for many generations. So it's fairly ambitious to imagine that you can spirit up major improvements like these proposed*. And it's fatuous to blame the tool design for the difficulties of a beginner.

*PS but don't let that put you off tool fiddlers everywhere - it seems a harmless enough pastime!

PPS

....
You don't need a shoe if you plane a big flat on the edge used for clamping, but you will get problems with it moving when tightening, most gauges have a pad to stop this happening.....

No they don't. Many mortice gauges have a button (if it's not been lost which is often the case) but this is to protect the brass slide from the screw end. The screw has two function on a mortice gauge - to hold the body and the second pin in place, so a finer thread giving greater pressure is needed.

**PPPS I'll change that to quarter farthing - they are bigger than I remember them!

 

[David C]

The arrogance and lack of ambition are really quite breathtaking.
Sight of the pin is a clear advantage to some workers.
The flatsided pin which is like the knife in a cutting gauge improves accuracy in fine work. A couple of extra gauges are not going to break the bank.
It has already been explained how a squareish shaft can be made to lock perfectly.
Removing a few arrisses is not difficult.
The plastic screw does considerable damage to a beech shaft.
I once talked with Peter Marples and he made it quite clear, that as long as he was selling x thousand a year he had no interest whatsoever in change.
The basic marking gauge is cheap crude and nasty, maybe ok for site workers.

David

 

[Ed Bray]

Other than the cost £69 what do people think of this gauge from David Barron:

http://www.davidbarronfurniture.co.uk/d ... pg=2&id=18

 

[Jacob]

....
The basic marking gauge is cheap and crude and nasty, maybe ok for site workers.

David

The basic marking gauge is a highly developed item - which is why it has barely changed from the Mary Rose example above, to the modern day. Millions of earlier woodworkers weren't all mad you know Dave, waiting for the new woodworkers to put things right! :lol:

 

[Cheshirechappie]

If anybody would like to make a few wooden gauges but is scratching around for something to make the pin from, try masonry nails.

They can be bought in small quantities from the sheds-on-the-bypass, and in larger quantities from almost any builder's merchants or interweb supplier, in several different sizes. If you buy galvanised ones by mistake (as I did!), pop a few in half a cupfull of vinegar overnight, and scrub off the resulting dark grey coating with a scrap of fine wet-and-dry - it comes off very easily. A good flush in clean water and a dry off, and you'll have enough for life. They'll make good trammel pins, too.

They're hard, but not so hard that they can't be filed to the shape you prefer (like screwdrivers and saw blades), and if finished with a small slipstone take a nice edge and hold it a good while in service. To install in the end of a marking gauge shaft, drill a pilot hole a little smaller than the nail (you may need to try a couple in a piece of scrap to find the right drill size), then just tap the pin through to the desired projection with a small hammer. It's probably wise to do the final shaping after installation in the gauge stem, just in case it twists a bit on being driven through.

 

[Jacob]

Other than the cost £69 what do people think of this gauge from David Barron:

http://www.davidbarronfurniture.co.uk/d ... pg=2&id=18

Expensive. Looks pointless. Looks uncomfortable to use. Would you want to mark up a huge stack of timber with it? I think not. Why bother when there's nothing wrong with the ordinary (cheap) pattern?
This thing about "seeing where you are marking" (seems to bother Dave too) is a bit of a non issue as you can usually see where you have been marking, from the position of the mark. If not then something has gone terribly wrong. :roll: Maybe a diagram would help?

 

[Cheshirechappie]

This thing about "seeing where you are marking" (seems to bother Dave too) is a bit of a non issue as you can usually see where you have been marking, from the position of the mark. If not then something has gone terribly wrong. :roll: Maybe a diagram would help?

It is a help to see what you're doing, though, especially on finer work. A bit like only sawing to lines you can see. It's one of those little tricks that assist in accurate work. If you're only working to plus-or-minus a clog tip, then it probably doesn't matter so much.

 

[Jacob]

T....
The plastic screw does considerable damage to a beech shaft.....

No it doesn't. I've got one which has been in regular use for 40 years (it's the one I use most often and I do do a lot of marking up). The screw has left a bit of a furrow down the side of the shaft*, but this has no bearing on the use of the tool, which would be good for another 40 years. A very good £2 worth of tool.

* both sides actually as I turned it around some time ago.

 

[bugbear]

T....
The plastic screw does considerable damage to a beech shaft.....

No it doesn't. I've got one which has been in regular use for 40 years (it's the one I use most often and I do do a lot of marking up). The screw has left a bit of a furrow down the side of the shaft*, but this has no bearing on the use of the tool, which would be good for another 40 years. A very good £2 worth of tool.

* both sides actually as I turned it around some time ago.

If it was so un-damaged, why did you need to turn it around ... ?

Perhaps you could find a woodworker to make you a new one. :lol:

BugBear

 

[David C]

Beech varies in density, and I have several stems which exhibit damage.

This interferes with smooth action and is a bad thing.

Leather washer solves problem, which exists in the real world, if not in Jacob's rarefied sphere.

David

 

[lurker]

Other than the cost £69 what do people think of this gauge from David Barron:

http://www.davidbarronfurniture.co.uk/d ... pg=2&id=18

The woodworker in me says its pointless
The tool fiddler has put a couple on his project list (hammer)

But why on earth would any self respecting woodworker buy one

 

[Woodchips2]

What's the advantage of having the pin at an angle rather than 90 degrees?

That was one of the main points of "discussion" in the rest of this thread!!

BugBear

Sorry I lost the will to live after the first half dozen pages :roll: I just liked the look of Paul's creation, it looks a man-tool.
Regards Keith

 

[lurker]

T....
The plastic screw does considerable damage to a beech shaft.....

No it doesn't. I've got one which has been in regular use for 40 years (it's the one I use most often and I do do a lot of marking up). The screw has left a bit of a furrow down the side of the shaft*, but this has no bearing on the use of the tool, which would be good for another 40 years. A very good £2 worth of tool.

* both sides actually as I turned it around some time ago.

If it was so un-damaged, why did you need to turn it around ... ?

Perhaps you could find a woodworker to make you a new one. :lol:

BugBear

This is just childish points scoring

 

[Noel]

The arrogance and lack of ambition are really quite breathtaking.
Sight of the pin is a clear advantage to some workers.
The flatsided pin which is like the knife in a cutting gauge improves accuracy in fine work. A couple of extra gauges are not going to break the bank.
It has already been explained how a squareish shaft can be made to lock perfectly.
Removing a few arrisses is not difficult.
The plastic screw does considerable damage to a beech shaft.
I once talked with Peter Marples and he made it quite clear, that as long as he was selling x thousand a year he had no interest whatsoever in change.
The basic marking gauge is cheap crude and nasty, maybe ok for site workers.

David

David, speaking as a woodworker but, with respect, you do little to dispel the notion that there is some degree of snobbery or superiority amongst some woodworkers. Sure, you're very welcome to your opinion and that's something that'll never change for members on this forum, but your last sentence shows poor judgement. Are site workers some type of lower caste? I know many that take great care and pride in their work. They are no different from you or perhaps many of your students in how they approach and execute their work. Indeed there is one I know who would put many to shame with his level of craftsmanship.

On a general note I fail to see why some feel using "cheap" tools automatically means less skill and poor workmanship. When I first started this WW lark I was swayed by all the posts and magazine articles about buying the latest this and the newest that. Then I happened to meet a very well regarded bespoke furniture maker. I saw him making a chest of drawers for a client and I was surprised to see he was using a square with a plastic stock. He had plenty of other inexpensive tools too. To cut a long story short he told me- "they work, they do the job I want, to the accuracy I need and the wood doesn't ******** care, so why should I?"

PS- he had a few cheap marking gauges too.....

 

[iNewbie]

Its funny how Jacob takes his usual swipes and nothings said - Yet Charlesworth gets the rib-poke with one off-the-cuff comment. Laughable really.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

The arrogance and lack of ambition are really quite breathtaking.
Sight of the pin is a clear advantage to some workers.
The flatsided pin which is like the knife in a cutting gauge improves accuracy in fine work. A couple of extra gauges are not going to break the bank.
It has already been explained how a squareish shaft can be made to lock perfectly.
Removing a few arrisses is not difficult.
The plastic screw does considerable damage to a beech shaft.
I once talked with Peter Marples and he made it quite clear, that as long as he was selling x thousand a year he had no interest whatsoever in change.
The basic marking gauge is cheap crude and nasty, maybe ok for site workers.

David

David, speaking as a woodworker but, with respect, you do little to dispel the notion that there is some degree of snobbery or superiority amongst some woodworkers. Sure, you're very welcome to your opinion and that's something that'll never change for members on this forum, but your last sentence shows poor judgement. Are site workers some type of lower caste? I know many that take great care and pride in their work. They are no different from you or perhaps many of your students in how they approach and execute their work. Indeed there is one I know who would put many to shame with his level of craftsmanship.

On a general note I fail to see why some feel using "cheap" tools automatically means less skill and poor workmanship. When I first started this WW lark I was swayed by all the posts and magazine articles about buying the latest this and the newest that. Then I happened to meet a very well regarded bespoke furniture maker. I saw him making a chest of drawers for a client and I was surprised to see he was using a square with a plastic stock. He had plenty of other inexpensive tools too. To cut a long story short he told me- "they work, they do the job I want, to the accuracy I need and the wood doesn't ******** care, so why should I?"

PS- he had a few cheap marking gauges too.....

Noel - far be it from me to criticise the mods, but in this instance I feel you're being a little unfair to David Charlesworth. He has had to endure a lot of needling from Jacob (constantly being called 'Dave', for example), and not just on this thread. The needling, sneering and veiled insult (phrases like 'crazy sharpeners', 'tool polishers' etc, used in a rather perjorative sense) been fairly constant for as long as I've been a member of this forum, and probably longer.

A couple of posts above these, another member suggested that there was some childish point-scoring going on. I rather feel that the whole thread has had that general tone. It was started (despite the title) purely to sneer at one particular tool - the wheel marking gauge.

I think the ideas that Jacob puts forward have validity, and certainly should not be censored. However, other ideas have equal validity, too. I feel it's unfortunate that Jacob feels he has to make his points by sneering and taking side-swipes at others; his message would carry more weight with me (and , I think, many others) if it were delivered in a rather more neutral manner.

Some time ago, on a similarly rambling thread, I posted something like this:

"Here is my method, it is effective and time-honoured, and I commend it to all." - great; we're all a bit wiser.

"Here is my method, it is effective and time-honoured, and you're crazy to do it any other way." - Hmm. Not so good.

I think Jacob has a lot to contribute, and the forum would be the poorer without his knowledge and experience. However, I'm sure we can all put forward our thoughts without the need to insult and demean others, or their different ideas about working wood. The reader can decide which approach suits their aspirations, needs and inclinations. I also feel that Jacob's needling tends to bring out the worst in some other contributors (though I can understand their irritation).

Noel - perhaps I might ask you to consider both sides of the argument? More generally, could we all try to respect different points of view and different approaches to working wood?

 

[Jacob]

Its funny how Jacob takes his usual swipes and nothings said - Yet Charlesworth gets the rib-poke with one off-the-cuff comment. Laughable really.

Actually it's the other way round. If you bother to read the thread you'll find that I am criticising ideas and methods but not being offensive to anybody personally (except answering back - I'm no angel!). But a whole mob including yourself start getting on their high horses and being downright offensive even when, like you, they have got absolutely nothing interesting to say about anything much.
I wasn't rude to Dave at any point until he started on "The arrogance and lack of ambition are really quite breathtaking" etc etc.
Some people just can't handle being disagreed with. Some people need to grow up.

I was going to post some snaps of my gauges tomorrow, if the thread hasn't come to any harm overnight!

PS and it's not about "purely to sneer at one particular tool" ("sneer" is an odd term re criticising a tool!) it's about trying to reassert the value of the alternative - a simple and under-appreciated tool, and by implication, many other "ordinary" tools which tend to get dismissed by the new boys.

 

[bugbear]

The arrogance and lack of ambition are really quite breathtaking.
Sight of the pin is a clear advantage to some workers.
The flatsided pin which is like the knife in a cutting gauge improves accuracy in fine work. A couple of extra gauges are not going to break the bank.
It has already been explained how a squareish shaft can be made to lock perfectly.
Removing a few arrisses is not difficult.
The plastic screw does considerable damage to a beech shaft.
I once talked with Peter Marples and he made it quite clear, that as long as he was selling x thousand a year he had no interest whatsoever in change.
The basic marking gauge is cheap crude and nasty, maybe ok for site workers.

David

David, speaking as a woodworker but, with respect, you do little to dispel the notion that there is some degree of snobbery or superiority amongst some woodworkers. Sure, you're very welcome to your opinion and that's something that'll never change for members on this forum, but your last sentence shows poor judgement. Are site workers some type of lower caste? I know many that take great care and pride in their work. They are no different from you or perhaps many of your students in how they approach and execute their work. Indeed there is one I know who would put many to shame with his level of craftsmanship.

I think you're over reacting.There have been many posts (presuambly from tradesman) over the years stating very clearly that they choose to use cheaper, rougher tools on site than in their workshop.

BugBear

 

[Noel]

The arrogance and lack of ambition are really quite breathtaking.
Sight of the pin is a clear advantage to some workers.
The flatsided pin which is like the knife in a cutting gauge improves accuracy in fine work. A couple of extra gauges are not going to break the bank.
It has already been explained how a squareish shaft can be made to lock perfectly.
Removing a few arrisses is not difficult.
The plastic screw does considerable damage to a beech shaft.
I once talked with Peter Marples and he made it quite clear, that as long as he was selling x thousand a year he had no interest whatsoever in change.
The basic marking gauge is cheap crude and nasty, maybe ok for site workers.

David

David, speaking as a woodworker but, with respect, you do little to dispel the notion that there is some degree of snobbery or superiority amongst some woodworkers. Sure, you're very welcome to your opinion and that's something that'll never change for members on this forum, but your last sentence shows poor judgement. Are site workers some type of lower caste? I know many that take great care and pride in their work. They are no different from you or perhaps many of your students in how they approach and execute their work. Indeed there is one I know who would put many to shame with his level of craftsmanship.

On a general note I fail to see why some feel using "cheap" tools automatically means less skill and poor workmanship. When I first started this WW lark I was swayed by all the posts and magazine articles about buying the latest this and the newest that. Then I happened to meet a very well regarded bespoke furniture maker. I saw him making a chest of drawers for a client and I was surprised to see he was using a square with a plastic stock. He had plenty of other inexpensive tools too. To cut a long story short he told me- "they work, they do the job I want, to the accuracy I need and the wood doesn't ******** care, so why should I?"

PS- he had a few cheap marking gauges too.....

Noel - far be it from me to criticise the mods, but in this instance I feel you're being a little unfair to David Charlesworth. He has had to endure a lot of needling from Jacob (constantly being called 'Dave', for example), and not just on this thread. The needling, sneering and veiled insult (phrases like 'crazy sharpeners', 'tool polishers' etc, used in a rather perjorative sense) been fairly constant for as long as I've been a member of this forum, and probably longer.

A couple of posts above these, another member suggested that there was some childish point-scoring going on. I rather feel that the whole thread has had that general tone. It was started (despite the title) purely to sneer at one particular tool - the wheel marking gauge.

I think the ideas that Jacob puts forward have validity, and certainly should not be censored. However, other ideas have equal validity, too. I feel it's unfortunate that Jacob feels he has to make his points by sneering and taking side-swipes at others; his message would carry more weight with me (and , I think, many others) if it were delivered in a rather more neutral manner.

Some time ago, on a similarly rambling thread, I posted something like this:

"Here is my method, it is effective and time-honoured, and I commend it to all." - great; we're all a bit wiser.

"Here is my method, it is effective and time-honoured, and you're crazy to do it any other way." - Hmm. Not so good.

I think Jacob has a lot to contribute, and the forum would be the poorer without his knowledge and experience. However, I'm sure we can all put forward our thoughts without the need to insult and demean others, or their different ideas about working wood. The reader can decide which approach suits their aspirations, needs and inclinations. I also feel that Jacob's needling tends to bring out the worst in some other contributors (though I can understand their irritation).

Noel - perhaps I might ask you to consider both sides of the argument? More generally, could we all try to respect different points of view and different approaches to working wood?

Hi CC. As mentioned in my post I was speaking as a woodworker, not as a mod. My post had nothing to do with Jacob, it was what I saw as a lack of judgement in David writing "the basic marking gauge is cheap crude and nasty, maybe ok for site workers".