Chisel primary bevel sharpening.

[Jacob]

Dennis and Roger raise the topic of small belt sanders. This open us to an interesting question.

Belt sanders can do an excellent job of preparing a primary bevel. FWW mag posted an jig I built 10 years ago (although I have not used it much over the past several years) ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTe ... erMkI.html

One now has three choices: (1) freehand on the resulting flat primary bevel, which is very inefficient (unless you are honing a laminated blade) (2) add a secondary bevel with a guide, or (3) add a secondary bevel freehand.

Now the question is, which produces the better edge - one freehanded or one via a honing guide?

Regards from Perth

Derek

The best way to use a belt sander is to use it freehand to grind and then finish on an oil stone. No jigs needed in either case.
You've gone to an enormous amount of trouble there Derek - I can't quite see the point. What is stopping you just holding the chisel at that angle, in one hand even?

 

[RogerP]

You've gone to an enormous amount of trouble there Derek - I can't quite see the point. What is stopping you just holding the chisel at that angle, in one hand even?

I did make a guide but it was soon discarded and from then I've just held the iron or chisel freehand.

 

[DTR]

Do people who don't use guides specialize in sarcasm?

Seems like it.

Do they also try to mislead?

Rather unfair to tar us all with the same brush :roll:

 

[Phil Pascoe]

"You've gone to an enormous amount of trouble there Derek - I can't quite see the point." - Jacob

I'm sure it doesn't matter jot to Derek whether you do or don't - he obviously did.

 

[DennisCA]

What about speeds on these grinders? I am halfway done building my strip sander (I enjoy building tools when possible) and using an induction motor I have, I will get 2850rpm with direct drive.

I read the sorby pro edge is a slow system (900rpm or such) so I'm thinking of adding step pulleys to change speeds and get more versatility out of this little machine. Already worked out the proper sizes to get speeds of 890-1600-2850.

It's a bit confusing to know what works best, when it comes to the big 2x72" belt grinders all the people using them for knife making and general metalwork, seem to say more speed is better for metalworking. But the sorby pro edge is a slow grinder in contrast. I assume grinding and sharpening aren't equivalent processes and require different speeds.

 

[David C]

Sorry Dave. (DTR)

Very true. Just a vocal few....

David

 

[Corneel]

Irony, not sarcasm.

 

[Jacob]

Are all jig users irritable and dogmatic?

 

[iNewbie]

Grinding irony, here....

 

[Jacob]

I can't see much advantage to using a single bevel, unless it is Jacob's rounded bevel where only the tip needs to be honed. But then, that's just the same theory as a secondary bevel, just without a clear boundary between the two bevels.

No. As I understand it, Jacob works the whole of his rounded bevel, not just the tip. It really is a single bevel (or infinite )

BugBear

It is in fact an infinite series of micro bevels. More bevels than you can shake a stick at!

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

An infinity of microbevels.

Honing must be exhausting!

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[D_W]

This is starting to sound like calculus. What's the tangent line intersecting the microbevel at 1/3rd of the distance from the edge?

Way too much to think about!!

 

[David C]

Inaccuracy and condescension,

What's not to get irritated about? ~;-)#

David

 

[Corneel]

Humour is rarely 100% accurate, other wise it wouldn't be funny.

But the message was clear: Design a jig and I'll find you a tool that doesn't fit.

 

[D_W]

Condescention. There's no inaccuracy in freehand sharpening done by someone with experience - especially if they grind the primary bevel.

David, I learned to sharpen from your video. Eventually someone who has to get something done with more tools than straight chisels and planes will realize that it is a starting point, but not a long term sensible method unless the actual use of chisels and planes is minimal.

It's just reality. At least sensible reality. You do it while you have to to get a decent result, but eventually you develop a skill and progress instead of being trapped in a cage of "I need to come up with another set of contraptions to sharpen a new tool".

I'd be willing to bet that my freehand honed irons are within two degrees final bevel of each other. Maybe less. But why would anyone who has any woodworking sense care? I care (as most should) not about some prescriptive set of angles and stops, I care that the iron cuts well, has the clearance it needs and does not chip. I care about the same with the chisel.

What am I going to do if I find that I want to hone something at a different angle? Rebuild a bunch of stops and measurements? Please. People who use stops aren't even getting a consistent angle with a guide unless every iron or chisel is the same thickness.

Let's get real here at some point and stop suggesting that someone who has the skill to hone freehand is somehow "better off" or "more accurate" if they use a jig. It's rubbish.

You know what a real prescription is for accuracy and quickness? Grind tools at a primary angle, lift the handle by an amount that you develop the feel to do - same every time - to hone, and when using something that works well with a shallow angle - like a paring chisel, hone right on the hollow. Done. No gadgets, no ridiculously priced "narrow chisel" holders or any other screwing around. Those things are good for beginners, but they take something that's easy for an experienced person to do and create a bunch of restrictions around it. Most things (like outcannel gouges and narrow chisels) are sharpened with an extremely simple motion, and setting up contraptions either keeps people from learning to use those tools in the first place, or it mentally makes them delay sharpening until they can no longer stand working with the tool.

 

[MIGNAL]

Did Jesus use a honing guide?

 

[Racers]

D_W we are all different and have different abilitys, some older people with physical problems need or want to use a jig others just like to use them, why try and stop them?
Lets let the jig users use them if they want to, not ridicule them, may be they will sharpen freehand one day or not, it's up to them.
Don't be a dictator, its just sharpening, as long as its sharp who cares how it got there.

Pete

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Did Jesus use a honing guide?

Ask Jacob..............he was there! :lol:

 

[D_W]

D_W we are all different and have different abilitys, some older people with physical problems need or want to use a jig others just like to use them, why try and stop them?
Lets let the jig users use them if they want to, not ridicule them, may be they will sharpen freehand one day or not, it's up to them.
Don't be a dictator, its just sharpening, as long as its sharp who cares how it got there.

Pete

Ahh, but pete, you'll see what I wrote is that if you can't get the results you want freehand, then you're forced to use a guide. Those people using guides because they have hand problems or poor eyesight, that's just part of the game.

What sets me off is the implication that there is some shortcoming in sharpness due to "lack of precision" if you're not using a guide. The vast majority of people won't fall into a category of folks who lack the physical agility or eyesight or craftsman's sense in general to sharpen very well by hand, especially if they set the primary bevel by machine (grinding a precise primary bevel by hand is a different issue entirely, honing is much easier).

It's important not to search for the exception in every rule, it blocks progress. You use the exception only when you know it applies - in the cases you're discussing, it applies. But such people shouldn't point fingers and say goofy things like "there's a lack of precision".

That kind of notion comes up when someone works with too many beginners and starts to apply shortcomings of beginners to everyone.

 

[MIGNAL]

Did Jesus use a honing guide?

Ask Jacob..............he was there! :lol:

Actually it was rhetorical question. I was there too. Jesus became very angry when he saw some of them using guides, so incensed that he drove them out of the workshop.