Your Hand Tool Wish List

[bugbear]

Question:

..if you have never knowingly used A2 , the how the heck are you qualified to comment on its properties

Answer, half right :
relaying opinions you have heard elsewhere
The wrong bit: without any personal experience to use as a yardstick
Personal experience - lifetime of using edge tools (cheapo rubbish by and large) without any of the probs which seem (I'm told) to beset A2 steel .

So you're prepared to believe negative third-party reports but not positive ones?

I think that's called "selection bias" in science, and is not well thought of.

BugBear

 

[mr grimsdale]

Question:

..if you have never knowingly used A2 , the how the heck are you qualified to comment on its properties

Answer, half right :
relaying opinions you have heard elsewhere
The wrong bit: without any personal experience to use as a yardstick
Personal experience - lifetime of using edge tools (cheapo rubbish by and large) without any of the probs which seem (I'm told) to beset A2 steel .

So you're prepared to believe negative third-party reports but not positive ones?

Not what I said at all. I said there were some negative reports. Read back if you want to know.
I take it you only believe positive reports yourself?
How do you account for the negatives?
With any reporting on the trendy fashion tool front there is always a positive bias - having forked out a load of dosh people want to believe the best. This means the scattering of negatives has even more weight.

 

[bugbear]

Question:

..if you have never knowingly used A2 , the how the heck are you qualified to comment on its properties

Answer, half right :
relaying opinions you have heard elsewhere
The wrong bit: without any personal experience to use as a yardstick
Personal experience - lifetime of using edge tools (cheapo rubbish by and large) without any of the probs which seem (I'm told) to beset A2 steel .

So you're prepared to believe negative third-party reports but not positive ones?

Not what I said at all. I said there were some negative reports. Read back if you want to know.
I take it you only believe positive reports yourself?
How do you account for the negatives?
With any reporting on the trendy fashion tool front there is always a positive bias - having forked out a load of dosh people want to believe the best. This means the scattering of negatives has even more weight.

So you are indeed favouring the negative over the positive. Unsurprising, but disappointing.

BugBear

 

[mr grimsdale]

...
So you are indeed favouring the negative over the positive. Unsurprising, but disappointing.

BugBear

BB weasels away! :lol: :lol:
Would you advise a potential purchaser to ignore negative reports: a. on this issue or b. on any issue or c. on no issues?

 

[bugbear]

...
So you are indeed favouring the negative over the positive. Unsurprising, but disappointing.

BugBear

BB weasels away! :lol: :lol:
Would you advise a potential purchaser to ignore negative reports: a. on this issue or b. on any issue or c. on no issues?

D) Come to a view based on all available information with credible sources?

Answer seems obvious - common sense even.

What is your hang up?

Some crap chisels were made out of O1 steel too.

BugBear

 

[mr grimsdale]

....
What is your hang up?

Some crap chisels were made out of O1 steel too.

BugBear

No hang up except A2 is associated with very expensive tools of supposedly supreme quality which are heavily promoted on this group and others. Over sold in fact.
So a fault is significant, whereas all my own tools are probably "faulty" but they cost FA so I don't care and notice even less.

 

[bugbear]

....
What is your hang up?

Some crap chisels were made out of O1 steel too.

BugBear

No hang up except A2 is associated with very expensive tools of supposedly supreme quality which are heavily promoted on this group and others. Over sold in fact.
So a fault is significant, whereas all my own tools are probably "faulty" but they cost FA so I don't care and notice even less.

Fine - you can make your furniture with a sharpened rusty nail, and the rest of us will make our own choices.

BugBear

 

[Doug B]

A2 is associated with very expensive tools of supposedly supreme quality

I have now begun to wonder why L N now offer o1 blades after years of promoting A2.

I`m not about to change my LN blades from A2 to o1, but it does appear that they are back tracking?

 

[Paul Chapman]

I have now begun to wonder why L N now offer o1 blades after years of promoting A2.

Surely just reacting to customer demand, as any good company would do.......

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[mr grimsdale]

....
Fine - you can make your furniture with a sharpened rusty nail, and the rest of us will make our own choices.

BugBear

More weaselly nonsense BB. True to form!
Lets face it - a crumbly unsharpenable chisel is probably as much use as a rusty nail.
You obviously don't know much about tools or you would know that there are many alternatives to the premium tools you are promoting. Do you get free samples too, or commission of any sort?

 

[mr grimsdale]

...

I have now begun to wonder why L N now offer o1 blades after years of promoting A2....

Could be to do with the crumbly edge complaints. Seems pretty obvious to me. Why look further?

 

[Doug B]

Surely just reacting to customer demand, as any good company would do.......

Cheers :wink:

Paul

I take that point on board Paul & have read the blurb on their website, but it does seem to be a bit late in the day when they started in 1981 to come to the conclusion now that the o1 blade will hold a better edge at lower angles.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Surely just reacting to customer demand, as any good company would do.......

Cheers :wink:

Paul

I take that point on board Paul & have read the blurb on their website, but it does seem to be a bit late in the day when they started in 1981 to come to the conclusion now that the o1 blade will hold a better edge at lower angles.

I doubt that LN have just come to that conclusion - I'm sure they always realised it but originally went for a material that would hold an edge longer when deciding what to make their blades from.

Beats me why everyone (well Jacob anyway :lol: ) is getting into such a lather about this. LN now sell A2 and 01. What more do people want :?

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Racers]

Hi,

From a beginers point of view and easier to sharpen chisel is a better one, yes? You don't want to be thrashing away with all sorts of expensive dimond stones and shiny jigs for hours, you need something you can rub on a bit of wet and dry and get on with woodwork.
I know some people spend hours sharpening and don't make much, which is what Mr Grimsdale is getting at, and if thats what they want to do fair enough.
But if you are just starting all these shapening threads must seem daunting, why don't we just all shut up and make some thing? :wink:


Pete

 

[big soft moose]

Beats me why everyone (well Jacob anyway :lol: ) is getting into such a lather about this. LN now sell A2 and 01. What more do people want :?

Cheers :wink:

Paul

some people like being in a lather - personally i think they should go and plane the crap out of something (with either A2 or 01 as per their personal preference)

 

[mr grimsdale]

Hi,

From a beginers point of view and easier to sharpen chisel is a better one, yes?

and from the point of view of a busy tool user surely?

You don't want to be thrashing away with all sorts of expensive dimond stones and shiny jigs for hours, you need something you can rub on a bit of wet and dry and get on with woodwork.

or an oil stone for maximum simpicity

I know some people spend hours sharpening and don't make much, which is what Mr Grimsdale is getting at, ....

Not quite what I'm getting at - it's their privilege as you say. It's just that there are other ways of doing things which are worth a look.

 

[Alf]

...why don't we just all shut up and make some thing? :wink:

Nah, that'll never catch on...

I like me O1, I don't deny it, and have moaned about the lack of it in the past. But I can also see that some folks find A2 more beneficial. I'm just glad we now have the option, so everyone can be happy. If they have it within them, of course... :wink:

 

[mr grimsdale]

...why don't we just all shut up and make some thing? :wink:

Nah, that'll never catch on......

I am making things! That's why I'm so interested in the tools - claims and counter claims etc. OK I've got a few more than I really need but it's all in the cause of woodwork, honest.

 

[bugbear]

....
Fine - you can make your furniture with a sharpened rusty nail, and the rest of us will make our own choices.

BugBear

More weaselly nonsense BB. True to form!
Lets face it - a crumbly unsharpenable chisel is probably as much use as a rusty nail.
You obviously don't know much about tools or you would know that there are many alternatives to the premium tools you are promoting. Do you get free samples too, or commission of any sort?

Taking your flung mud in order:

The normal cause of "crumbly" A2 edges is sharpening at an angle lower than recommended by the manufacturer. LN chisels (the commonest A2 chisels) have been successfully sharpened and used with great success by many people.

I know there are (shock) more expensive and less expensive tools, of varying levels of performance. Isn't that entirely obvious?

No I don't get free samples or commission.

I do wish you'd stop trying to convince everyone that your particular brand of hair shirted woodwork is the only way.

BugBear

 

[bugbear]

Surely just reacting to customer demand, as any good company would do.......

Cheers :wink:

Paul

I take that point on board Paul & have read the blurb on their website, but it does seem to be a bit late in the day when they started in 1981 to come to the conclusion now that the o1 blade will hold a better edge at lower angles.

A2 would appear to be an excellent choice for a bevel down plane blade, where the bevel can be as steep as you like (as long as you have blade relief). After several trials, Steve Knight ended up recommended a honing bevel of 30 degrees in the his bevel down planes, even when using O1 (or similar) Steel. Most of the planes introduced by LN back there were BD designs.

In a high EP bevel up plane, the wear resistance of A2 would also be a sensible choice, since the wearing forces are higher at high EP.

But if you want a super-lower angle paring chisel (like the glorious pattern maker styles), A2 would be inappropriate.

BugBear