Your Hand Tool Wish List

[Eric The Viking]

Just briefly whats the Pros and Cons of O2 vs A2?

A2 is problematic and best avoided.

I read recently that people used to tell which was which by the colour of the grinding sparks, but frustratingly the article never said what to look for!

I've been working on my edge tools recently (after years of neglect). I have a 1980s Stanley #5 and a war finish Record #4. I get yellow/red sparks from the Stanley blade on the grinder, and whiter ones from the old Record iron (which isn't itself in very good nick - not my fault, that one!). I also noticed an orange-red glow from a Ward chisel yesterday, when re-hardening (or trying to!). It was absent from my 1970s-80s Marples ones.

Are any of these indicators? The glow ought to tell me what 'impurities' are in the steel (it also had whiter sparks on the grinder), but I'm not sure what it means - it definitely wasn't sodium yellow, much redder than that.

Can anyone shed light on this, or was I too unobservant to get enough data?

 

[mr grimsdale]

Don't know about the sparks (except HSS is orange) but I'd advise keeping all thin plane blades well away from power grinders which generate sparks. Sparks means heat. Over-heating is just too easy.
Thin blades are perfect for hand honing/grinding, power not needed at all. This is their strength - the reason why they were preferred to the thick ones in old woodies

 

[bugbear]

Just briefly whats the Pros and Cons of O2 vs A2?

A2 is problematic and best avoided.

I read recently that people used to tell which was which by the colour of the grinding sparks, but frustratingly the article never said what to look for!

It was called the "spark test" - a lovely example of empirical knowledge. An engineer could pick up a bit of metal, touch it to the grind wheel, and have a good idea what sort of metal it WAS in around 1 second.

Bit quicker that a metallurgical lab!

Here's one example:

http://shopswarf.orconhosting.net.nz/spark.html

BugBear

 

[Aled Dafis]

Just briefly whats the Pros and Cons of O2 vs A2?

OK, very briefly (sorry Rob, I'll try and make it as balanced and unbiased as possible).

A2

Pro(s)
1. Increased Wear resistance, so the edge lasts longer - suitable for use with abrasive timbers.

Cons
1. Increased wear resistance, so it's more difficult to hone - requires the use of a hader honing medium e.g. Diamond, Ceramic.
2. "Some" users feel that A2 can not be honed to such a high level of sharpness

O1

Pros
1. Can be honed easily with any honing medium.
2. Responds well to stropping between honings to maintain a razor edge.
3. "Some" users feel that O1 can be honed to a higher level of sharpness than A2

Con(s)
1. Edge doesn't last as long as A2 (but it's easier to hone, see above)

Cheers

Aled (running for cover)

 

[woodbloke]

Just briefly whats the Pros and Cons of O2 vs A2?

OK, very briefly (sorry Rob, I'll try and make it as balanced and unbiased as possible).

A2

Pro(s)
1. Increased Wear resistance, so the edge lasts longer - suitable for use with abrasive timbers.

Cons
1. Increased wear resistance, so it's more difficult to hone - requires the use of a hader honing medium e.g. Diamond, Ceramic.
2. "Some" users feel that A2 can not be honed to such a high level of sharpness

O1

Pros
1. Can be honed easily with any honing medium.
2. Responds well to stropping between honings to maintain a razor edge.
3. "Some" users feel that O1 can be honed to a higher level of sharpness than A2

Con(s)
1. Edge doesn't last as long as A2 (but it's easier to hone, see above)

Cheers

Aled (running for cover)

Aled, you're in the wrong job...the diplomatic corps for you I fancy :lol: - Rob

 

[TheTiddles]

Just briefly whats the Pros and Cons of O2 vs A2?

OK, very briefly (sorry Rob, I'll try and make it as balanced and unbiased as possible).

A2

Pro(s)
1. Increased Wear resistance, so the edge lasts longer - suitable for use with abrasive timbers.

Cons
1. Increased wear resistance, so it's more difficult to hone - requires the use of a hader honing medium e.g. Diamond, Ceramic.
2. "Some" users feel that A2 can not be honed to such a high level of sharpness

O1

Pros
1. Can be honed easily with any honing medium.
2. Responds well to stropping between honings to maintain a razor edge.
3. "Some" users feel that O1 can be honed to a higher level of sharpness than A2

Con(s)
1. Edge doesn't last as long as A2 (but it's easier to hone, see above)

Cheers

Aled (running for cover)

I think you missed one thing, A2 has massively increased corrosion resistance, now I know we all wrap our tools up in cashmere at the end of the day, but just in case...

Aidan

 

[David C]

I profoundly disagree with statement 1 of Aled's A2 cons.

If he had said it was more difficult to grind, I would wholeheartedly agree, but A2 sharpens very well indeed on Japanese Waterstones.

It does seem that oilstone users may have some difficulty.

There is no way I would swap my A2 plane blades back to 01. I can remember all too clearly how often they needed sharpening.

That 01 gets sharper is a very subjective observation and I have yet to be convinced. 01 may well hold up at lower sharpening angles but that is another matter.

David Charlesworth

Rob,

The Holtey has a bed of 22 1/2 degrees (I think), blade sharpened at 35 degrees, so effective pitch 57 ish. This is not sufficiently high for the 'wood from hell' aka Indian Laurel, so a 25 degree back bevel on conventional plane is more appropriate. Pitch 45 degrees, plus 25 deg. back bevel gives effective pitch of 70 degrees.

The Holtey would certainly have done it but I would have needed to sharpen the blade at something nearer to 48 degrees.

I use nice friendly Sycamore, because I am pitching at beginners and people who struggle with sharpening and plane use, not skilled and experienced workers like yourself

 

[Mr Ed]

I have several planes and a good number of chisels all in A2 and they seem to work perfectly well to me.

I suspect the recurring frequency of the A2 Vs O1 debate is more to do with the liking of the protagonists to churn over the same issues to see who they can get a rise out of, rather than the practical reality of using the stuff.

Ed

 

[EdK]

O1 vs A2 ... come on guys.. you're not a wood worker unless you have everything in D2.. sheesh I thought everyone knew that...

Jokes aside... I don't think it really matters. I use LN bench chisels in A2 and some AI's in O1 and mortice chisels in D2... all sharpen well with Japanese waterstones. Plane blades are a mix too. I don't even think about it that much any more.

I mentioned Disston as I like their hand saws and think that for £20 odd quid they represent far better value (second hand) than new alternatives. I like new planes but old saws... weird but there we go. Have bought Spear and Jackson saws but prefer the Disston ones.

Who makes dovetail chisels on a par with the Blue Spruce ones ? Just curious

Ed

 

[woodbloke]

Rob,

The Holtey has a bed of 22 1/2 degrees (I think), blade sharpened at 35 degrees, so effective pitch 57 ish. This is not sufficiently high for the 'wood from hell' aka Indian Laurel, so a 25 degree back bevel on conventional plane is more appropriate. Pitch 45 degrees, plus 25 deg. back bevel gives effective pitch of 70 degrees.

The Holtey would certainly have done it but I would have needed to sharpen the blade at something nearer to 48 degrees.

I use nice friendly Sycamore, because I am pitching at beginners and people who struggle with sharpening and plane use, not skilled and experienced workers like yourself

David - not having a pop at you at all, it's just that everywhere I go I see demonstrators using something pleasant to use with their planes (Konrad and Philly do the same thing) If there was something nasty side by side with it (the sycamore) at the same time, then it would be a fairer (to me anyway) demonstration of the planes capabilities. Glad you enjoyed the WfH experience!
The Holtey was fantastic btw, I was just surprised by the width of the mouth - Rob

 

[mr grimsdale]

...
I suspect the recurring frequency of the A2 Vs O1 debate is more to do with the liking of the protagonists to churn over the same issues to see who they can get a rise out of, rather than the practical reality of using the stuff.

Ed

Not really. There has been a whole series of unconnected negative comments on this group and elsewhere (abt crumbly edges mainly), over several years. Others seem completely satisfied. In other words the stuff must be variable and you may be unlucky.

 

[dannykaye]

I rarely recommend wikipedia but the spark test page is nice

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark_testing

 

[Philly]

David - not having a pop at you at all, it's just that everywhere I go I see demonstrators using something pleasant to use with their planes (Konrad and Philly do the same thing) If there was something nasty side by side with it (the sycamore) at the same time, then it would be a fairer (to me anyway) demonstration of the planes capabilities.

Rob
I think Konrad has answered this question to you on a blog somewhere - it comes down to time issues. If you have to sharpen the iron every fifteen minutes you get rather less time to talk to customers, etc. It's more important to me for customers to have the opportunity to hold and use the plane than to set up impromptu "ultimate planing competitions".... :lol:

Cheers
Philly

 

[frugal]

David - not having a pop at you at all, it's just that everywhere I go I see demonstrators using something pleasant to use with their planes (Konrad and Philly do the same thing) If there was something nasty side by side with it (the sycamore) at the same time, then it would be a fairer (to me anyway) demonstration of the planes capabilities.

Rob
I think Konrad has answered this question to you on a blog somewhere - it comes down to time issues. If you have to sharpen the iron every fifteen minutes you get rather less time to talk to customers, etc. It's more important to me for customers to have the opportunity to hold and use the plane than to set up impromptu "ultimate planing competitions".... :lol:

It also has the nice side effect of introducing newbies like me to lovely woods like Sycamore. I had never considered it for woodworking purposes before, but after seeing how beautiful, pale and glassy it planed up with David C, I fell in love with the wood

 

[jlawrence]

Fascinating. I've been wondering what the differences between the various metals used for blades was/is. Still no idea at all which I prefer though - I suppose it'd better buy some more toys in order to find out

 

[Pekka Huhta]

...
I suspect the recurring frequency of the A2 Vs O1 debate is more to do with the liking of the protagonists to churn over the same issues to see who they can get a rise out of, rather than the practical reality of using the stuff.

Ed

Not really. There has been a whole series of unconnected negative comments on this group and elsewhere (abt crumbly edges mainly), over several years. Others seem completely satisfied. In other words the stuff must be variable and you may be unlucky.

...Or then the individual users just do not have enough tools to compare them properly :wink:


I do not wish to step on anyones toes (not the least on David's), but I think that there is a far more significant difference between O1 and A2 than suggested.

I have been trading old and antique tools in Finland for a good while, and have sharpened quite a good lot of plane irons and chisels over the years. And as I do this as a hobby and not for living, I have plenty of time to be fussy on the sharpening, so efficiency isn't that important. Time to analyze things instead of just honing away.

My own tools are mostly all carbon steel, so I'm not even suggesting that I would be objective about this.

But what I can can be objective about is the difference on sharpening. I use oilstones on all carbon steel tools, as I hate rust spots after sharpening on waterstones. But whenever I have a lot of A2 irons or chisels to hone, I routinely take out my waterstones. Oilstones on A2 are slow, the honing time increases by more than 1,5-1,7 times compared to carbon steel. On waterstones the difference isn't that big (maybe 1,2-1,3 times longer or so), but it takes longer on them as well.


I think that the difference in sharpening O1 or A2 is something that you shoud consider when choosing your sharpening method. I love my oilstones and despite they are a bit slow, I prefer them over waterstones. On the other hand I would not recommend them to anyone who has more than 1/3 of their tools with A2 tool steel. Then it would make sense to use waterstones.

Probably you will get more "sharp time" per honing time with A2, but I still love my carbon steel tools

Pekka

 

[mr grimsdale]

..Oilstones on A2 are slow, the honing time increases by more than 1,5-1,7 times compared to carbon steel. On waterstones the difference isn't that big (maybe 1,2-1,3 times longer or so), but it takes longer on them as well.
.....
Probably you will get more "sharp time" per honing time with A2, ....

Pekka

So there is no point in A2; stays sharp longer but takes longer to sharpen and you need to buy waterstones (which wear out) etc. etc. And you get crumbly edges.
Is that a bum deal or what?

The more I read the more obvious it becomes - avoid A2.

Personally I've never knowingly had A2 tools; I've never had crumbly edges and I sharpen (very effectively) on oil stones which last a lifetime.

 

[David C]

I should be ignoring a crass statement like that, but what the hell.

If Mr G had actually used A2 for half the time that I have, his opinion might carry some weight.

David C

 

[mr grimsdale]

True, I shouldn't really comment. After all it's only the people who use it who complain about it.
Some, not all. A majority?
I'm quite neutral but they have certainly talked me out of it!
The price is another disincentive - what are you getting for the money?

PS and I have been using various unknown steels (I know nothing about steel) for many years, probably been at it longer than our Dave, without any complaint about the steel itself, except where it has been spoiled by heat or corrosion.

 

[big soft moose]

avoid A2.

Personally I've never knowingly had A2 tools; I've never had crumbly edges and I sharpen (very effectively) on oil stones which last a lifetime.

I normally stay away from debates like this because i'm more interested in working wood and making things than in what sort of steel is best etc

but as a general point i find the above difficult to credit - if you have never knowingly used A2 , the how the heck are you qualified to comment on its properties - surely all you are doing is relaying opinions you have heard elsewhere without any personal experience to use as a yardstick , and that adds very little to the debate