Work so hard you cripple yourself

[Croolis]

Here's an example of low-pay manual work in the modern age. Maybe they should just work harder. Maybe they should have got more qualified. Only got themselves to blame.

Perhaps trickle down economics will serve them. Maybe they should buy shares. I mean, if you complain about being poor, then it's your fault for not working smarter and harder.

https://amp.theguardian.com/busines...staff-efficiency-productivity-crackdown-timed

 

[TRITON]

^^ Time and motion studies, usually devised by people who haven't done manual labour and and are in overpaid positions. It's a heartless concept, that should have been consigned to history, and in my mind it is little better than slavery.
Type of thing a tory would come up with.

Maybe they should just work harder. Maybe they should have got more qualified. Only got themselves to blame.

I hope you're kidding.

 

[ChaiLatte]

Here's an example of low-pay manual work in the modern age. Maybe they should just work harder. Maybe they should have got more qualified. Only got themselves to blame.

I did not follow your link, but assume you are showing the picture of Donald Trump serving fries in the fake McDonalds.

 

[deema]

I do love Labour who in 2010 under Brown introduced the wonderful law of Anti Age discrimination . It was brilliant, instead of me allowing tge elderly workers to do the easier jobs and work at a lower pace, I had and we still tiday expect and require the elderly workers to do tge same jobs as a 20 year at the same pace. Otherwise the twenty year olds complain to tge union and we got anti age descriminatiin cases against us. Yes, Labour killed and maimed a number of workers as we could not after a lifetime of dedicated work look after them as we had traditionally done.

Before someone says, oh, set the pace and physical effort to the oldest worker……well, if we did that, and set it to what a. 75 year old could do, we wouldn’t have had a business left. He was still working due to Labour under Brown when chancellor raiding and destroying company pension schemes…..final salary schemes. Labour should rebrand the party ‘Hard Labour’

 

[Blackswanwood]

I do love Labour who in 2010 under Brown introduced the wonderful law of Anti Age discrimination . It was brilliant, instead of me allowing tge elderly workers to do the easier jobs and work at a lower pace, I had and we still tiday expect and require the elderly workers to do tge same jobs as a 20 year at the same pace. Otherwise the twenty year olds complain to tge union and we got anti age descriminatiin cases against us. Yes, Labour killed and maimed a number of workers as we could not after a lifetime of dedicated work look after them as we had traditionally done.

Before someone says, oh, set the pace and physical effort to the oldest worker……well, if we did that, and set it to what a. 75 year old could do, we wouldn’t have had a business left. He was still working due to Labour under Brown when chancellor raiding and destroying company pension schemes…..final salary schemes. Labour should rebrand the party ‘Hard Labour’

I’m not sure it’s quite as black and white as you paint it.

Age in itself isn’t a determinant of how fit and able a person is but conditions which are associated with ageing are. You are supposed to take account of any conditions that an employee has and make reasonable adjustments either in the allocation or measurement of their work.

The practice covered in the article shared by the OP is awful.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

^^ Time and motion studies, usually devised by people who haven't done manual labour and and are in overpaid positions. It's a heartless concept, that should have been consigned to history, and in my mind it is little better than slavery.
Type of thing a tory would come up with.

My sister had problems with it in the mid - late '70s .................. under Labour.

 

[artie]

Wow imagine having to lift 18kg. 1cwt cement bags was work.

As for age, I can't find anyone under 60 willing to do a days work.

 

[Hypnotic Chimera]

I do love Labour who in 2010 under Brown introduced the wonderful law of Anti Age discrimination . It was brilliant, instead of me allowing tge elderly workers to do the easier jobs and work at a lower pace, I had and we still tiday expect and require the elderly workers to do tge same jobs as a 20 year at the same pace. Otherwise the twenty year olds complain to tge union and we got anti age descriminatiin cases against us. Yes, Labour killed and maimed a number of workers as we could not after a lifetime of dedicated work look after them as we had traditionally done.

Before someone says, oh, set the pace and physical effort to the oldest worker……well, if we did that, and set it to what a. 75 year old could do, we wouldn’t have had a business left. He was still working due to Labour under Brown when chancellor raiding and destroying company pension schemes…..final salary schemes. Labour should rebrand the party ‘Hard Labour’

That sounds more like a crooked and obtuse misinterpretation of the guidelines, (perhaps deliberately??) rather than the fault of the guidelines themselves.

As Blackswanwood skilfully explains, this has very little to do with "age discrimination" and far more to do with being "enabling". Unlike the linked story - which is so transparently and obviously founded in proactive human exploitation, at the expense of both safety and humanity (*while also disregards the "carp in - carp out" that so beleaguers any software system).

 

[deema]

I’m not sure it’s quite as black and white as you paint it.

Age in itself isn’t a determinant of how fit and able a person is but conditions which are associated with ageing are. You are supposed to take account of any conditions that an employee has and make reasonable adjustments either in the allocation or measurement of their work.

The practice covered in the article shared by the OP is awful.

I suggest if you haven’t, try manual labour when you’re approaching retirement. I ran manufacturing companies, that complied with the highest standards of H&S with all manual assistance where ever possible. However, when making certain products, it needs manual labour with a tack time that’s reasonable. However, as you age and your stamina, muscle tone and overall physical ability reduces you cannot keep up with the physical effort of the tack time. I spent hours with the lawyers and arguing with the union shop steward and area convenor about allowing people as they got older to have easier jobs. The answer was simple, to do so was discrimination to the young bucks.

It’s black and white. It’s absolutely abused, another law brought in by Labour who hadn’t run a company or in most cases done a decent job in the private sector in their lives. Looking forward to Angela’s latest push for working laws. Brilliant insight she must have, having all those qualifications and years of experience running businesses generating wealth for the country……or perhaps not

 

[deema]

That sounds more like a crooked and obtuse misinterpretation of the guidelines, (perhaps deliberately??) rather than the fault of the guidelines themselves.

As Blackswanwood skilfully explains, this has very little to do with "age discrimination" and far more to do with being "enabling". Unlike the linked story - which is so transparently and obviously founded in proactive human exploitation, at the expense of both safety and humanity (*while also disregards the "carp in - carp out" that so beleaguers any software system).

The article is ageism , it mentions the guys age.

I spent three years trying to get around the stupid law to continue to allow my ageing employees to have an easier time as they went into retirement. Most had worked for the company since they were a boy. If you think it’s all wonderful you’re deluded. It kills off the older employees and employers can do sod all about it. In fact, you have to treat everyone equally unless there is a protected characteristic or, they have a medical condition. Being old and less physically able is not a medical condition that’s recognised. I had six guys examined by a doctor to see if I could use that as a reason to treat them properly and with respect. It came back that they were fit to work.

 

[selectortone]

I’m not sure it’s quite as black and white as you paint it.

Life rarely is, but that doesn't work for social media.

 

[Hypnotic Chimera]

I suggest if you haven’t, try manual labour when you’re approaching retirement. I ran manufacturing companies, that complied with the highest standards of H&S with all manual assistance where ever possible. However, when making certain products, it needs manual labour with a tack time that’s reasonable. However, as you age and your stamina, muscle tone and overall physical ability reduces you cannot keep up with the physical effort of the tack time. I spent hours with the lawyers and arguing with the union shop steward and area convenor about allowing people as they got older to have easier jobs. The answer was simple, to do so was discrimination to the young bucks.

It’s black and white. It’s absolutely abused, another law brought in by Labour who hadn’t run a company or in most cases done a decent job in the private sector in their lives. Looking forward to Angela’s latest push for working laws. Brilliant insight she must have, having all those qualifications and years of experience running businesses generating wealth for the country……or perhaps not

I'm not a young buck any more, even if I'm not approaching retirement age, yet...

Bottom line - No. No it isn't black and white, and that "interpretation" is incorrect. You were quite correct to challenge that, and it turns out, I strongly believe, that you're still correct.

The legislation allows 100% for "objective justification" and I'm pretty sure that the humble internet has simple plain english explanations for what that means. I'm also of the belief that Health and Safety legislation would take precedence over any "tacit" claim of age discrimination by anyone when viewing an aging worker receiving "better conditions" than them.

Risk assessments would also play an active role in *recording* any "objective justifications" that would later then be relied upon...


Case in point - the RAF Fitness Test has different PASS standards for male/female and for different age groups. This is a well tested and well documented area of employment laws - and neither of the above "discriminations" fall under sex or age discrimination...

 

[JSW]

As for age, I can't find anyone under 60 willing to do a days work.

Voice of experience speaking there I see.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Sadly as one ages, physical capacity declines. With a following wind and dementia permitting judgement and skill increase!!

It is entirely reasonable to have proper regard for age in setting expectations for older staff. Basing expected performance on that delivered by the young and fit could be discriminatory.

However - it could be seen by the young and fitter as a "reverse" age discrimination. That younger folk are expected to do more than their older colleagues on the face of it seems unfair.

Pay could be based upon piece work - a common practice in days gone by. The more product shifted in a warehouse environment, the more the pay. At some point older workers may fail to make minimum wage - clearly an issue.

Pragmatism should rule. There comes a point where jobs reliant on physical prowess are no longer feasible or desirable. It is time to move on to something that is. The military and police recognise this - warehouse or building site workers (for instance) are no different.

Circumstances change as we age - not just physical health, but family commitments, relationships, financial needs etc etc. If a job becomes too physically demanding to do effectively - find something else.

Note - this does not condone excessive, intrusive or unpleasant employment conditions.

 

[John Brown]

I do love Labour who in 2010 under Brown introduced the wonderful law of Anti Age discrimination . It was brilliant, instead of me allowing tge elderly workers to do the easier jobs and work at a lower pace, I had and we still tiday expect and require the elderly workers to do tge same jobs as a 20 year at the same pace. Otherwise the twenty year olds complain to tge union and we got anti age descriminatiin cases against us. Yes, Labour killed and maimed a number of workers as we could not after a lifetime of dedicated work look after them as we had traditionally done.

Before someone says, oh, set the pace and physical effort to the oldest worker……well, if we did that, and set it to what a. 75 year old could do, we wouldn’t have had a business left. He was still working due to Labour under Brown when chancellor raiding and destroying company pension schemes…..final salary schemes. Labour should rebrand the party ‘Hard Labour’

While I sympathise with you and the position you found yourself in, as a result of anti age discrimination legislation, I sincerely doubt that it was enacted in order to cause the sort of distress you describe. I would blame the bureaucrats who administered it and the, by the sound of it, selfish and nasty "young bucks" you refer to.
Do you think that it should be acceptable to refuse employment to someone, based simply on their age?

 

[Tris]

This article reminds me of the old phrase 'beatings will continue until morale improves'

How long until warehouse work is fully automated though? I gather 'dark warehouses' are springing up all over Europe.

 

[Blackswanwood]

In fact, you have to treat everyone equally unless there is a protected characteristic or, they have a medical condition.

I'd respectfully suggest you are confusing things and in doing so undoing your own argument as age is a protected characteristic.

 

[Croolis]

I'm a manufacturing planner. Looking after lines that are both machine run and hand assembly. An MRP/capacity levelling/routing managing t-w-a-t. I got here via low echelon team leading production cell as well as a few years turn in Quality (no belts , though I do have an NVQ oooh). I have worked at bastid minimum wage companies doing hard graft and nice companies like relative holiday camps, like where I work now. I grafted my way up from the shop floor.

I am ignorant of legal stuff. When I was team leading all my staff were temps so we just got rid of the problem ones. That's the joy of a temp work force. The downside is, I was allowed no perms at all so as soon as the work dropped off I couldn't retain any useful people. That's just how it is in modern UK manufacturing in some sectors and some sized companies, be workforce scalable or be unable to compete. I can recall several times getting rid of older guys who could not keep up with the pace. A very old company down the road was in permanent decline and there was a steady flow of skilled old boys who had been made redundant. It made me feel about 2 inches tall when I had to tell them (I swerved giving the reason for their own dignity, though some people would just leave the whole conversation up to the agency), and was particularly galling as I knew those blokes would turn up on time, every day, and do their level best and not be a pain in the backside.

But orders is orders (mein fuhrer), and the truth is, it wasn't hard work, they simply were too slow. But none of this stopped me giving them the easiest jobs to do to give them a chance. Nobody objected. I've never worked anywhere (and I've worked for some sh**ters), where any rank and file staff objected to giving the old guys the easier work, nor any shop stewards making any noise about it. That normally comes from management, looking for excuses to increase productivity. So I don't recognise deema's statements. I'm not saying they are untrue, just in a great many years of working in manufacturing at several levels, I've never seen any evidence of that particular behaviour.

Just in case anyone was wondering. The OP is stinky bait .

 

[niall Y]

With hard physical work there is an understanding that age will slow you down. It varies with individuals, but like athletics, it is a young "mans" game. One of the holiday jobs I had as a student, was stacking 1cwt bags of grass seed, as it arrived off large articulated lorries, to form huge ziggurats on a warehouse floor.Despite fairly good health - there is no way, on Gods earth, I could compete with my younger self.

Working on building sites, I was always conscious that hardly any of the workers was passed forty years of age. If they were, they were usually the one in charge. The oldest guy by far , was in his late Fifties. And he was retained by the main contractor to be a general handyman and gopher.

The only way to overcome the inevitable, is to graduate to being part of management, where ones declining physical strength won't be such an issue.

 

[Croolis]

With hard physical work there is an understanding that age will slow you down. It varies with individuals, but like athletics, it is a young "mans" game. One of the holiday jobs I had as a student, was stacking 1cwt bags of grass seed, as it arrived off large articulated lorries, to form huge ziggurats on a warehouse floor.Despite fairly good health - there is no way, on Gods earth, I could compete with my younger self.

Working on building sites, I was always conscious that hardly any of the workers was passed forty years of age. If they were, they were usually the one in charge. The oldest guy by far , was in his late Fifties. And he was retained by the main contractor to be a general handyman and gopher.

The only way to overcome the inevitable, is to graduate to being part of management, where ones declining physical strength won't be such an issue.

Respectfully, physical strength vs "hard physical work" is only half the story. The scenario I described above just required a little bit of coordination and moderately quick movement, no heavy lifting at all. Just couldn't keep up. Breaks your heart.