Who is in and who is out?

[Phil Pascoe]

I'm not at all surprised at the number of people I know who want to get out of the EU - swmbo's on the fence but I can think of only one person I know that I know to favour staying. We stay and we'll lose any vetoes and rebates as they'll have us over a barrel - the rest of the EU doesn't give a toss about Britain as long as we can borrow enough money to keep paying them.

 

[RogerS]

We need some immigration but not uncontrolled immigration and we can thank the last Labour government for that. Jack Straw admitted that it was a 'spectacular mistake'. Their research suggested that only a "relatively small" number of migrants would head to the UK and in 2004 decided to give workers from eastern Europe the immediate right to work in the UK.

Next month official statistics are set to confirm that the UK's population has reached a record high, exceeding the symbolic 65m threshold. At the start of the millennium, statisticians expected this number to be reached only after 2031.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

to be honest I am surprised at the amount of people I know who want to get out of Europe, it disturbs me, I think conservatives are deliberately saying they want to stay in just so you vote to get out, and it seems to be working.

For me, it's about being governed by people accountable to those they govern. The Westminster government isn't perfect, but at least each of us has equal power (one vote), and can collectively hold it to account at a General Election if enough of the population thinks that government isn't acting in the nation's best interests.

Government by Brussels is different - government is something done to populations whether they like it or not by people not elected by them, and not accountable to them through the ballot box (the European Commission take the decisions, basically), and determined to follow their own agenda of a European super-state; something nobody has ever had the chance to vote for or against.

For all its faults, I'd rather have the Westminster system; if enough of the population thinks a government is going in the wrong direction, it can be thrown out and somebody else given a chance, as happened in 1979, 1997 and 2010. There's no democratic way to change Brussels' mind once an EU treaty is signed. All the arguments about the economy, immigration and so on are secondary, as far as I'm concerned.

I also think Brexit would be the best thing that could happen to Europe. It would force a rethink about the direction of the EU. A group of independent, self-governing nations co-operating where they saw fit on matters of trade, defence and so on would be more stable, and in the end better for more ordinary people, than an enforced super-state in which all ways of life and attitudes must be made to fit one template.

 

[Water-Mark]

In or out we need and will have immigration, the numbers are not dependent on the EU.
We could take back our borders but we won't, like we could spend our 50, 40 or 20 million on the NHS but we won't.

VAT on domestic fuel and tampons could be scrapped but it won't.

Will we be better off?
The truth is we don't know what the economy will do and neither do they, no one can say what will happen either way nor can they say what would've happened either way.

Someone though will try.

Most of the EU control and human rights act stories i've read over the years have actually been false, whilst the stories we should be reading we're deemed to boring to print.

For all its faults i'm voting in, not for any political beliefs but as a human being and inhabitant of this planet think it needs fewer borders and boundaries not more.

 

[Jacob]

....
For me, it's about being governed by people accountable to those they govern. The Westminster government isn't perfect, but at least each of us has equal power (one vote), and can collectively hold it to account at a General Election if enough of the population thinks that government isn't acting in the nation's best interests.

Nothing will change on this

Government by Brussels is different - government is something done to populations whether they like it or not by people not elected by them, and not accountable to them through the ballot box (the European Commission take the decisions, basically), and determined to follow their own agenda of a European super-state; something nobody has ever had the chance to vote for or against.

We participate in the decision making (MEPs etc) and if we don't like it we can pull out any time

....There's no democratic way to change Brussels' mind once an EU treaty is signed.

Yes there is - if the worst comes to the worst we can pull out - as we will be doing shortly if the vote goes that way

......... an enforced super-state .....

No force is involved. We vote to remain (or not), we negotiate via our MEPs and MPs and all/any other pressure groups, if the worst come to the worst we pull out. It's all by voluntary agreement - we don't sign away any rights other than by voluntary contracts.

 

[finneyb]

I'm IN, just posted my postal vote.
This is just right wing Tories thinking we still have an Empire - they need to wake up and smell the coffee; life has changed.

Brian

 

[flying haggis]

Im out

 

[Rhossydd]

Voting to stay in.
I think that we have more influence and power as part of a large grouping, than being a minor isolationist 'Johnny no mates' on the edge of Europe.
When every major political party, the elected government, the trade unions, every major financial body and every other country in the world except Russia and China think we're all better off in the EU, why would anyone with sense think otherwise.
Leaving looks to be a financial disaster for the country and me.

 

[Woodmatt]

Bugbear,I am one of those lovely Spanish ex pats now back in the Uk and loving it.The grass is definitely greener here,mainly due to the rain.

I will be voting out.When you live abroad you realise just how diverse each country and its people are.So in my view all the different countries cannot be run by one government which is what we are heading for if not already there.Lets get out.

 

[Jacob]

expats aren't going to like losing reciprocal health (and other) benefits. They'll all be hobbling back - if they are fit enough to make the journey! Better start planning now!

NB countries will still have their own governments - it's a bit exaggerated this notion that we would just become like the USA.

 

[bugbear]

NB countries will still have their own governments - it's a bit exaggerated this notion that we would just become like the USA.

Each state of the United States of America still has it's own government with its own powers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_leg ... _States%29

BugBear

 

[pip1954]

Well I said my bit to start but I think there is a lot of scare mongering going on and I think it will back fire people get sick of hearing all the rubish ,I for one don't really think thing's will change for the worse if we come out ,
I just think we should be in charge of our future good or bad that to me will not happen in the EU we have more than enough rules that we have had to follow,
It's time for change

 

[Rhossydd]

NB countries will still have their own governments - it's a bit exaggerated this notion that we would just become like the USA.

A good point. I wonder how widely travelled some of the Brexiters actually are. The diversity between our European neighbours is huge, in no way is mainland Europe some sort of homogenised uniform state.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Recent 2015 figures show immigration equally split between EU and non-EU. The non-EU (180000) entry is based on a points system. We are now being told by Leave that a similar system would apply to EU nationals in the event of a Leave vote. It is worth noting that 10% of doctors and 5% of nurses are EU migrants - plus others in key service jobs. The difference in real immigration between Leave and Stay is quite possibly something around 100000.

The bigger risk to the UK will arise when or if economies on the European mainland improve. We will see far fewer new arrivals and job vacancies unfilled for lack of suitable candidates.

A far better solution than the economic pain and risk of exit would be to very flexibly and rapidly divert funds to ensure that local infrastructures are able to cope with immigrants who are not evenly distributed.

In the longer term - 10 years + in my estimation - whether the UK will perform better in or out is a matter of faith or instinct. In the short term there is no evidence that things will be better, but every indication they will be worse. A belief in the economic talents of Gove and Johnson compared to IMF, BoE, IFS, Obama, Merkel etc etc seems misplaced (to say the least). The notion that potential losses can be replaced by newly negotiated trade deals with both the EU and others in time scales below five years is naive at best - just look at past performance in this by EU where a 10 year time scale is not unusual and trade deals require approval by all members.

I can accept sovereignty could be an overriding issue for some. But I have been utterly disappointed with the quality of the arguments and behaviour of our home grown political elite on both sides of the argument. I could be very easily persuaded that the Brussels elite (for all its faults) may be more attractive than the clowns that seem to rise to the top in Westminster.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

"The notion that potential losses can be replaced by newly negotiated trade deals with both the EU and others in time scales below five years is naive at best - just look at past performance in this by EU where a 10 year time scale is not unusual and trade deals require approval by all members."
Only because the EU as such is thoroughly incompetent. The money is in Germany - they won't be overridden by minor Countries if they're going to lose money. As was pointed out on QT the other night - Chile has negotiated more trade deals than the the EU, and none have taken anywhere near ten years.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

NB countries will still have their own governments - it's a bit exaggerated this notion that we would just become like the USA.

A good point. I wonder how widely travelled some of the Brexiters actually are. The diversity between our European neighbours is huge, in no way is mainland Europe some sort of homogenised uniform state.

That's precisely why the great project to create a unified single-state Europe won't work - there's no common demos. The sooner it is abandoned in favour of each nation being independent, self-governing and sovereign, but co-operating where there is mutual benefit on matters such as trade and defence, the better for all concerned.

 

[Jacob]

There isn't "a great project to create a unified single-state Europe".
The EU is about "each nation being independent, self-governing and sovereign, but co-operating where there is mutual benefit".
If it went another way we could pull out. Proof? Referendum coming up, if it's a no we pull out, otherwise we wouldn't be having one; "they" would stop us!

 

[RogerS]

Remind me again why the EU Parliament decamps every month and shuttles between Brussels to Strasbourg for precisely four days? What's that all about?

What did you say? The MEPs voted to scrap this second Parliament but France veto'd it. Now who was it saying that MEPs have some sort of clout ?

Our MEPs have virtually zero influence in the European Parliament as they were unable to stop the majority of proposals they opposed from being passed.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Only because the EU as such is thoroughly incompetent. The money is in Germany - they won't be overridden by minor Countries if they're going to lose money. As was pointed out on QT the other night - Chile has negotiated more trade deals than the the EU, and none have taken anywhere near ten years.

I agree that the EU is sclerotic and bureaucratic - but this is common to many administrations including UK. It's taken over a generation to still not decide where to put additional south-east runway capacity, HS2 may cost as much as 5 times the French equivalent and won't be operational until 2033 (phase 2), we are rapidly running out of generating capacity and Hinckley point is still uncertain etc.

It is always difficult to find sensible comparators - the GDP of Chile is 10% of the UK. A Norwegian politician made an interesting relevant point - because Norway is small it needs to respond flexibly to events around it (like Chile??), but the UK wants to set the agenda and expects others to conform to its wishes.

I agree Germany may dominate EU proceedings - but it may not just be the minnows that protest - eg France and Italy may wish to protect their domestic car manufacturers from Honda, Toyota, Nissan made in the UK. Minnows may be hopeful of inward investment from the Japanese, Korean and Chinese manufacturers. It is by no means a done deal and similar consideration apply outside the car industry - eg: fishing rights, pharmaceuticals, financial services.

 

[Rhossydd]

The sooner it is abandoned in favour of each nation being independent, self-governing and sovereign,.

when has that ever worked in the past ?
Germany is a federation created from smaller states, as is Italy, USA, even the UK.