danst96
Established Member
I go on the evidence of my two eyes. Once in 2019 and the other in 2024. Two different places. 2019, a nice safe place. 2024, a warzone. Read all the "facts" you like, I would recommend visiting.
US Election November 5th
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danst96
Established Member
Any part of that half hour long audio clip in particular???
I mean a simple link to an actual statute or law will do...
Or even a news article (from an organisation that DOESN'T have a 3/4 of a billion dollar judgment against it for lying lol) will do...
Something like this that shows the new laws that were enacted after the Blake case overturned the drug implement possession laws https://edition.cnn.com/2023/05/17/us/washington-drug-possession-law/index.html (which totally negates your claim that 'all hard drugs are legal in Washington' lol)
danst96
Established Member
Sorry it was a link to an article but it put it as an audio not sure what's going on.
Google drug decriminalization Oregon.
So why exactly am I having to prove YOUR second point????
I have already shown you a direct link to a news article showing that the first is complete nonsense...
(odds are could I be bothered, I would find the second equally false)
You made the claim, you provide the evidence...
...so I can deliberately misrepresent the problem of wealth inequality as the quest for absolute equality of wealth.
danst96
Established Member
Not going to bother arguing with someone who's clearly never seen the problem first hand.
You are welcome to do your own research, I have witnessed it myself in person in real life the impacts of a failed attempt to decriminalize drugs, something the government of Oregon is walking back on. Something youd know if you would care to research properly.
All very well having strong opinions about something. How about coming and seeing for yourself
John Brown
Freeloading Social media influenza
I have visited Washington state almost every year for the last 24 years. The number of homeless people has certainly increased alarmingly. Mainly in Seattle, as far as I know. Likewise in Oregon the homelessness is concentrated in Portland. There seems to be a correlation between affluent cities and homelessness
Whether poverty leads to drug abuse or vice-versa is hard to call, and there are other factors as well.
RobinBHM
Established Member
yes but your anecdotal evidence is built on cognitive bias
lets be honest here all the points you have made regards to Kamala Harris are Trump / Republican talking points.....the things you say arent base on evidence, but based on bias, they are opinions, not factual evidence
regarding Oregon, you havent looked at the detail, the nuance, your argument is simplistic binary political tribalism.
The reality is that the war on drugs is lost, if America continues to criminalise drugs all it maintains the huge criminal activity and it means lots of people taking drugs end up in jail and the problem is just removed from society until they come out.
maintaining the status quo is not the solution
And making drug decriminilisation a tribal political point solves nothing
Of course I might just point out that the USA prison service is privatised and the main companies that own the jails.....donate to Trump and Republicans.
America has a privatised jail system, those companies have a business model that means more people in prison means more profit
you have to ask yourself why America has the worlds largest prison population
lets look at the facts
1) drugs were never decriminalised in Oregon:
"In 2020, Oregon voters approved Ballot Measure 110, which decriminalized possession of small amounts of drugs, like fentanyl and methamphetamine, in the state. Under the 110 system, drug users no longer received criminal penalties, but were instead served with a $100 ticket, which could be voided if the recipient got a needs assessment."
2) the law has not been simply reversed
"While some parts of Measure 110 are still in effect, lawmakers made significant changes. Enter House Bill 4002, which Gov. Tina Kotek signed into law April 1. Possession under the new law is once again a misdemeanor crime, but the statute also sought to deliver on the promise of treatment outlined in Measure 110. The bill allocated millions of dollars for counties to establish so-called “deflection programs” to do just that."
3) it seems the problems have been a result of poor implementation and not simply decriminalisation leading to issues
"Some evidence suggests that the law itself was hampered by poor implementation—a joint investigation by Oregon Public Broadcasting and ProPublica earlier this year found state leaders failed to implement initiatives to connect those fined by law enforcement with services, and that training for law enforcement on their role in the process was lacking. A 2023 state audit on the measure suggested that funding was slow to roll out and that many of the required services for those struggling with abuse were not running at full capacity."
4) some studies have shown there isnt a direct link, some show a link, its certainly not clear
This study found no evidence of an association between legal changes that removed or substantially reduced criminal penalties for drug possession in Oregon and Washington and fatal drug overdose rates.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesf...-walking-back-its-drug-decriminalization-law/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37755815/
https://www.opb.org/article/2024/09...ut in the four years,to make the measure work.
Blackswanwood
Still Learning
You see the same thing in LA, San Francisco and San Diego. I'd struggle to say that the legalisation of drugs has helped albeit there is a suggestion that the policy has not been followed up with the required support programmes.
This seems to concur with the point @danst96 is making.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-68716519
Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
Easily explained: the USA govt has no intelligent policy over immigration, is ignoring the problem, and the global issues driving it.
We have the same problem here with our own feeble government.
These things are the direct responsibility of governments. Higher taxes fix issues if spent on intelligent solutions to problems. It really is very very simple.
We have the same problem here with our own feeble government.
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selectortone
Still waking up not dead in the morning
My daughter lived in Vancouver for 10 years, returning home about ten years ago. She was back there this summer on holiday. She noticed the rise in homeless people and the increased size of the no-go drug areas. I have to say though, you could probably say the same about most UK cities. Certainly here in Bournemouth the homeless problem has increased significantly, you wouldn't want to visit some areas after dark, and the drug problem, with its associated violence and stabbings has escalated massively, despite Dorset Constabulary's much vaunted 'War On Drugs'.
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Jacob
New Luddism. Awake and resist!
Both. It's a cheap way of having fun if you are skint but can become fiercely addictive. Not such a problem for the well off and/or those not inclined to addiction.
Similar problem with alcohol, though much worse than drugs in terms of societal impact.
BC'er
Established Member
Waste of time arguing with true believers; they don't operate on a rational level. There is always a proportion of the population who for most of history manifested as religious fanatics. Now, when their fanatical impulse generally finds no outlet in the traditional manner, it often manifests as political and ideological religiosity.
This kind *knows* they are right and your experiences or those of a hundred or a thousand other people are at best "anecdotes" or more often deliberate attacks on their "truth". This kind wandered through the Ukraine in 1933 and wrote back that everything was wonderful, or lived next a death camp in WWII and didn't smell a thing. They'll tell you that a Stalin or Hitler, according to the variety, were great humanitarians etc. etc.
Political Calvinism: "I'm right because I am fundamentally better than those who weren't chosen by God/don't have my understanding."
The more common and garden variety are in one of the flocks and folds which science has determined make up about three quarters of the population: safety in numbers, keeping bahhing with the rest and above all keep well in from the edges of the group.
RobinBHM
Established Member
so do you think danst96 "anecdotal evidence is better than factual studies, evidence, data?Waste of time arguing with true believers; they don't operate on a rational level. There is always a proportion of the population who for most of history manifested as religious fanatics. Now, when their fanatical impulse generally finds no outlet in the traditional manner, it often manifests as political and ideological religiosity.
This kind *knows* they are right and your experiences or those of a hundred or a thousand other people are at best "anecdotes" or more often deliberate attacks on their "truth". This kind wandered through the Ukraine in 1933 and wrote back that everything was wonderful, or lived next a death camp in WWII and didn't smell a thing. They'll tell you that a Stalin or Hitler, according to the variety, were great humanitarians etc. etc.
Political Calvinism: "I'm right because I am fundamentally better than those who weren't chosen by God/don't have my understanding."
The more common and garden variety are in one of the flocks and folds which science has determined make up about three quarters of the population: safety in numbers, keeping bahhing with the rest and above all keep well in from the edges of the group.
Im not sure what you are saying
Trump is a provable liar, a committed felon and he lied about 2020
anybody that supports Trump is overlooking the fact he is morally corrupt -A person that is morally corrupt is not a suitable candidate to be a president, anybody who thinks otherwise is in a cult
RobinBHM
Established Member
John Brown
Freeloading Social media influenza
You see it in Honolulu too. If you're going to be homeless, you might as well be homeless where either the weather is clement, or the pickings are good.
Personally, I haven't spent any time interviewing homeless people in Seattle, Honolulu or Portland, so I can't state with any certainty that their problems stem from a change in the drug laws.
Sure- I'll pop right over- if you pay the tickets...
I'm not spending my money to prove YOUR claims...
(claims already not backed up by publicly available statements lol)
I'll make my way to Brisbane airport when you have the tickets ready...
sploo
Somewhat extinguished member
That's one of the single weirdest comments I've ever read.
If there were a species of ape that hoarded more bananas than it could possibly ever need (and resulted in its fellow apes starving) then it'd be studied to work out what the heck was wrong with it. When a human does it we put them on the front cover of Forbes. We're a weird species.
I believe Warren Buffet once made a comment to the effect that paying a bit more tax doesn't really put the successful off trying to make more money.
Taxation that combats excessive wealth would result in more money for the state to run services; which benefits all. Ideally that would be accompanied by incentives for business to reduce the massive inequality between the wages of the lowest and highest earners (in the order of 120x times difference between bosses and workers for FTSE 100 companies).
Is any of that going to happen? I doubt it. But it if it could ever be made to happen then would it really be a terrible thing for those at the top to simply be very well off and comfortable, in return for the majority being able to eat?
