Severance negotiations

[Richard_C]

Started writing this and see others have contributed along the same lines I started so at the risk of some repitition but some new stuff, here we go.

If it's not a formal disciplinary meeting the employer is under no obligation to allow a rep or colleague to attend. Even for an investigation.

Start positive but ask early on what the purpose of the meeting is.

If they say its disciplinary then say you have been given insufficient notice. That notice has to be in writing with reasons. If it's just 'a chat' then go with it (for now).

If the company has a written policy on what to do to attend interviews then it's reasonable to infer that it's OK to attend interviews. A point worth making. If they discipline you for so doing you have a very strong case to appeal but you must go through all the stages before claiming constructive dismissal, you have a much better case if you can show that you have done all you can to put things right.

It's not disloyal to seek to improve your career. It's accepted normal practice.

Don't badmouth your boss or the company. They can take that as evidence of a breakdown in trust and go for termination by that route.

Have you put anything derogatory on social media? If there is something out there which says my employer is pants or my boss is a...then they might be able to build a case.

I assume you are not a director or office holder, the rules on fiduciary duty are a little different.

Also some sales and marketing jobs, if the employer thinks you are leaving and you have all the customer data and relationships they might want to get you out quickly and be prepared to pay for it I've never believed that works, the sales person will have all the data anyway so best to make them work their notice and keep some control

If they launch into a protected discussion, one which neither party can use as evidence if it comes to tribunal later, it leading to essentially an offer to go in the form of a settlement agreement, Remember its not just the salary. If they chose to dismiss you for anything other than gross misconduct they would have to go through a process which might take 4 weeks, then give you 4 weeks paid notice, plus holiday pay plus pension contributions, all the while paying 12.8% employers NI, and their HR consultants time, so the 'bill' to go quietly, if that's what they want, is at least 3 months gross pay plus a bit, I would start at 6 months salary and if they offer less than 4 months refuse to discuss further. Ask them to clarify tax and NI on any payments. HMRC website will have the rules but it was NI but no tax under 30k 4 months gross untaxed is the same value to you as 5 or 6 months net.

It's common in settlement agreements to include the wording for an agreed reference. Worth asking for.
For it to be binding you have to have legal advice or a union paid officer to sign it, a solicitor will charge c. 350 for a simple case and the employer should pay that, after all they want it not yiou.

Go into the meeting positively, but before you go be clear in your own mind what you really want. If you left immediately with a settlement of a few months pay would it be so bad? Or do you quite like working there and just want this to go away. Only you can answer that. If you are part way through something like a mortgage application, maybe going is not so good. Main thing, think big picture what outcome do you want, you don't have to tell them but it stops you getting all confused and agree to something you regret

If an employer wants rid of you they will find a way, today or one day soon. If that's the case, takes as much money with you as you can. Much better to do it by settlement if you can simply because tribunal backlogs mean you will be waiting months, years, even before you get any ££ and it takes its toll on you because you can't put it behind you . Some people want the tribunal so they can see the employer 'lose' in public Big picture though, best put your efforts into your new job and move on. Plus a no win no fee lawyer will want 40% or more of any ££.

On a more positive note, the CIPD reward survey last year found that ove half of employers made counter-offers to keep some key staff....What did they offer you, OK then will you stay if we match it?

You don't know until you get there.

Have a look around the Acas website, the real one not the pretend ones. Acas.Org.Uk. Read the for employers bits as well as the for employees stuff.

 

[--Tom--]

Just to add to blackswanwood’s post
Worth knowing up front if the meeting is without prejudice and clarifying that up front - it has a specific meaning.
https://www.cavendishlaw.co.uk/employees/without-prejudice-meetings.html

 

[Spectric]

There is something not being mentioned about this situation, when you are happy and settled in a position then how many actually think about let alone attend an interview for another job. I have always found that there is a reason for a job change, better career prospects, don't like the management, feel you are stuck in a rut, don't fit in or just want a change but there is a reason.

Your first decision before any meeting is to decide whether you actually want this job and to be part of that business otherwise you are just flogging a dead horse and maybe that is what the boss is feeling towards you but you really want a job that you are happy to get up for each morning without feeling oh no not another day in that place. My last job was just like that in that all I needed to do was turn up and take the money, the hardest part was keeping myself occupied all day to avoid the boredom and it was the most soul destroying job I have ever had but I was close to retirement and the pension was good.

 

[Lard]

Here's another angle that I don't think anyone else has mentioned and I t's something that was instilled in me by my father from an early age......Always try to see things from the other person's perspective as it often provides an insight into an argument or belief or, in this case perhaps, their actions. In this way it could be a means of deflating any formal proceedings through the simple act of explaining why you felt you had to take the opportunity to attend the other interview and, additionally, if he believes you want to stay, he may accept/recognise why you did it etc etc. If he's got anything about him, and you're genuine, it may even improve your relationship.

 

[niall Y]

The purpose of the meeting could be quite benign. They may simply want to know where they stand. Should you leave, they will have to find a replacement for you and may just want to be kept abreast of the situation. They may even want to know what it will take to make you stay. If, however, they have taken against you, then you may well be advised to start looking in earnest for a new job.


The company my wife worked for operated a policy, that was illegal even at that time, which was to force female employees out of their jobs, if they had gone off on maternity leave. They found fault in many ways. gave disciplinary cautions and hounded you out of your job.

The law may well be on your side but unless you are prepared to keep a diary of all the minute details of your working day and put up with the associated stress and visits to lawyers. You should look to change jobs as quickly as possible.

 

[mg123]

This seems an odd situation, I'm a senior manager in a site over over 800, and a business employing 10k+. I've also handled many disciplinary and redundancy meetings. Personally, if I'm aware of someone applying, or interviewing elsewhere, my first thought is always, "why, and what could we do better". And these are questions, I ask in an informal setting face to face.

There has already been plenty of good advice here, especially blackswanwood. No legal requirement to a witness/rep (unless your handbook says otherwise) for an investigation. A disciplinary meeting will require formal notice, investigations do not.
As others have also stated, some context would really help to understand the kind of questions you're likely to face and help build a picture of your situation.
What'd the size of the business, what level you are, any previous conversations that have taken place. Have there been recent changes, for example, have other people been through what you are about to go through?
It seems quite strange to move directly to severance, based on the information provided so far.

If you are happy with your job, and wish to remain, being open and honest (with a little diplomacy) would be my advice. I've applied for jobs in the past when I'm happy. My reasons are usually for experience, or to get a feel for the competition. Or just to understand what's on offer elsewhere. There's no harm in keeping an eye open, and any respectable business should understand that too.

 

[Richard_C]

then give you 4 weeks paid notice,

Should have said, at least 4 weeks. You are entitled to the higher of statutory or your contract of employment. Statutory notiic (over 2 yrs service) is one week per year to cap 12, so in your case 4. If your contract says (say 3 months then they have to gove you that.

 

[paulrbarnard]

Same as @mg123 says, my experience, I’m an exec in a very large company, is to find out why you are looking to leave and what we can do keep you on board.
It’s absolutely normal to look out for yourself and pursue other opportunities when they come up. That doesn’t make you disloyal it actually makes you more valuable as it shows someone else values you to and in a competitive labour market it is up to the employer to retain staff. It cost a great deal to on board a new employee and get them productive.
Don’t feel you have let your current company down. Tell your boss that the opportunity came up and you simply wanted to find out more. If the interview went well and there are better term, conditions, better work or what ever then you can always open a discussion about what your current employer could do better to help your career progression (better to talk about that than asking for a pay rise).

If there are other considerations beyond the genuine interest in your career and you were expecting to leave for any other reason then there is a lot to be gained simply from negotiating a severance package. Keep in mind how long it might take you to get a new position and try to cover the gap. Something like two months plus a month for each year. If negotiation is not possible then you need to start considering a tribunal and I would strongly suggest talking to a professional in that area to make sure you don’t do anything in the short term to effect that in the future.
Best advice is be polite, be honest and be calm.

 

[RogerS]

Company policy is unpaid leave for interviews. Leave was booked and the reason declared. He seems to view it as disloyal to the company and an indication of reaching a parting of the ways. I have 4 years 7 months service.

Reason declared ? Regardless of the legal position, wasn't that just a bit short-sighted ?

Aside from my comment above. there is some bloody good advice here.

 

[Spectric]

Personally, if I'm aware of someone applying, or interviewing elsewhere, my first thought is always, "why, and what could we do better". And these are questions, I ask in an informal setting face to face.

A good indication that the management team is working both ways and that if an employee is looking for another job then you need to know why because if there is an issue then it effects the business and other employee's may also be looking elsewhere, often with others following the first to leave.

It seems quite strange to move directly to severance, based on the information provided so far.

That is what I find strange, some info is missing because there is a lot that can be done before reaching that stage and sounds like it has got to the point of no return, are both parties to stubborn to move ground or has behavior or misconduct crept in somewhere.

 

[Fergie 307]

If it does go the wrong way it is well worth getting hold of the company policy on the matter, and how it should be conducted. There have been quite a few cases where people have won at Tribunals because the company has not followed its own policy, even though it's actions may not have been unlawful per se. But I would certainly go into it with an open mind, they may just want to know if they are doing something wrong, or could do better. Good luck.

 

[Bingy man]

Did you go to the interview in your own time? If so. It's non of his business. How long have you worked there? If over two years, you have a lot of rights. The 'third party' HR company will know that. In the interview, take a tape recorder with you. But let the other party know you will be recording.

You should be allowed to take another colleague into the meeting with you .

 

[Bingy man]

Slightly different situation but When I went through to a stage 4 on capability I attended all meetings via teams ( Covid ) and I was always courteous and polite . There were times when I wanted to scream and shout but I kept it civil. At the end of the meeting and the decision was made to terminate my employment ( 30 odd years ) I was congratulated on my conduct throughout the process and my honest and consistent answers . I in turn thanked them for not putting me under any more pressure than was necessary and allowing me to speak openly. So the op is not at this stage and hopefully won’t but the best advice throughout this thread is be honest , polite and put yourself in your employers shoes . You don’t need to record but take notes of the date , time and names of those present . The reason the op may be omitting information is imo that he could be breaking company policies on social media use ( mentioned earlier ) the one thing my employer told me several time was not to discuss or disclose anything said in meetings to others or on any form of social media.

 

[Richard_C]

You should be allowed to take another colleague into the meeting with you .

Maybe you should, if by that you mean it would be better, but as many have already said in this thread you have no legal right to be accompanied unless it is a formal disciplinary or grievance meeting or a formal redundancy consultation.

No point wasting energy or falling out trying to enforce a right you don't actually have.

In some circumstances a reasonable employer will allow it, but it's at their discretion.

 

[Paultheroamer]

Like Keith I held a very similar role. Blackswanwood’s advice is very sound. Most importantly you should not agree to any severance offer in the meeting and advice should be sought after the meeting from citizen’s advice or an employment legal specialist. Always useful to take written notes.

 

[Sean33]

My employer has taken a dim view of me attending a job interview and has scheduled an “informal chat with a third party HR Company to discuss the structure of the company going forward “ in other words the possibility of a severance deal. Whilst he appears to suggest this is just to explore our situation and I won’t have to take up any offer, I am not so sure that will actually be the case. What do I need to know beforehand- the meeting is Monday, he only told me last night so no time to arrange a representative.

I would object to the meeting until you have found a suitable representative. I believe you have a right to that. I may be wrong but I think you are allowed to ask what the meeting is about and therefore prepare

 

[paulrbarnard]

I would object to the meeting until you have found a suitable representative. I believe you have a right to that. I may be wrong but I think you are allowed to ask what the meeting is about and therefore prepare

You should read the thread before posting. Representatives have been clarified several times.
Asking what the meeting is for is a good option but the OP already knows what it’s about.

 

[davethebb]

Just to add what Blackswanwood said which is all good advice. Depending on how the meeting goes (it may be fine), if you feel that you need to when you make notes and write them up, issue them to the other side and ask for comments. They should also do the same. This is a formal record of the meeting that can be referred to at a later date if need be.

 

[Agent_zed]

Can't go into reasons why took my previous employer to tribunal but ended up getting a nice settlement as well as 10yrs of redundancy pay.

Some things I learnt. Assuming things go badly.

Take a backup of all your emails onto your own device (this might not be legal so don't shout about it)

Don't let them bully you

Don't think that because they have fancy lawyers they will win. I represented myself and got a large settlement, and I ran circles around their lawyers.

You can request a 'subject access request' and legally the company has to send you everything that relates you they hold, including emails they send to each other about you. They of course might 'lose' certain emails, which is why I think having a copy of all your emails is useful as you can then add that into your complaint if they fail to provide you with documents you know they have.

Certainly don't take the first offer. I think I had 4 final final offers.

Either way take super detailed notes. If it goes to court stick to the absolute truth and keep your story straight. The judge in my case was very fair and could tell I was telling the truth as I repeated my claim exactly. Their lawyers tried to change something and the judge called them up on it.

Hopefully it will all be a simple meeting and nothing will come of it. Good luck

 

[Blackswanwood]

Take a backup of all your emails onto your own device (this might not be legal so don't shout about it)

I have to disagree with that. It's not legal (therefore falling into the category of gross misconduct) and leaves a digital footprint that certainly any employer I have worked for would be able to see.